This is the complete, edited & augmented transcript of e005 of the PSK Podcast, in which Graceann Bennett interviews author Gregory Roberts about topics and details of his True Crime / Prison memoir, Pirate Soldier King. This segment focuses on CHURCH BEHIND BARS / RELIGION IN PRISONS.
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Introduction: Religion in Prisons
Graceann Bennett (00:20)
All right, we’re here with Gregory Roberts for another episode of Pirate Soldier King. And I am your host, Graceann Bennett. So hello, Gregory–
Gregory Roberts (00:22.118)
–and I’m Gregory Roberts–
Graceann Bennett (00:10.382)
All right, yes, you’re Gregory Roberts, there we go. We know our names, oh-kay!
Gregory Roberts (00:27)
That’s a good start. <chuckles>
Graceann Bennett (00:30)
So that’s a good start! So in this episode, we’re gonna get into religion… specifically, religion in prisons. So we’re gonna get into it, and I want to back way up. We talk about religion, you talk about coming into Christ and we’re going to get to all that, but I want to back it all the way up to just understanding you: Gregory Roberts growing up, and your path, your religious and your spiritual path… and let’s start from the beginning. So tell us a little bit about how you grew up and how religion played a role… or didn’t.
Gregory Roberts (01:17)
You said “in the beginning.” So: “In the beginning, God said: Let there be Light.”
Graceann Bennett (01:22)
Yes, the beginning. the real Beginning, okay.
Why is the Sky Blue?
Gregory Roberts (01:26)
…and my parents tended to call that — the origin of the Universe — the Big Bang. So to give the background, I guess, that you’re asking about, my parents were both very hardcore scientists. My dad was a chemistry PhD, and my mother was biochemist. My mother actually almost, she was nominated for Nobel Prize. They were very serious scientists. And so, and they both ended up first teaching as professors and then going into government, actually, and then research.
So when I would ask as a kid, like I remember vividly being about seven years old and being like, “Hey Dad, why is the sky blue?” And he went into this long explanation of light waves and how the nitrogen in the atmosphere absorbed all the reds so it looked blue and this, that, and the other.
…and I was just thinking: Why couldn’t he have just said, “God made it blue”? Like, that’s really the answer I wanted. But everything was some kind of mathematics or physics or, you know, detailed science. And so basically I ended up, what I consider to be a child absent of… I mean, on a technical level, absent of any spiritual doctrine or instruction.
Church Music
We did actually go to church… twice a year! We went on Easter and on Christmas. And the reason was not for the services. The reason was because my mother was, in addition to being a scientist, she went to Oberlin College and double majored in both biochemistry and music. And so she loved to sing and she had a beautiful voice and could harmonize. So she would just belt it out and always be harmonizing when the church sang the hymns. And she loved singing in public and in a chorus like that. So that was my twice a year church.
Graceann Bennett (03:21)
Okay, well my mom’s in a church choir, so she loves singing too. There we go.
Gregory Roberts (03:25)
There it is, yeah. I — singing is, I just love it when people sing. It’s like, you know… that’s your true… when you sing, no matter how skillfully, it’s your heart song. Its like you are channeling your heart through your vocal cords and out your mouth. And what does it make? Melody, and music. Its just an expression of pure beauty of a soul.
Graceann Bennett (03:33)
Mm-hmm. Wow. So, those were the only times. And how did you feel when you went to church those two times during the year?
Gregory Roberts (03:40)
I learned how to sing harmony in the middle of a bunch of amateur melody people. That’s, that takes some, some technical ability and some strength, but yeah. yeah. I was amused. I guess I… certainly, there was no doctrine or indoctrination. Other… other than Science.
Graceann Bennett (03:46)
Yeah. Okay.
But did you have a craving for some spiritual meaning or understanding the world?
Gregory Roberts (04:10)
I had a huge craving.
In fact… yes, this is a separate story, but in fact, I ended up running away from home and joining a cult because the cult leader was like, “Hey, I got all the answers. Here’s what God is and here’s what angels are and here’s why the universe was made” and all these stories and things. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s what I needed. it’s like, again, that’s a whole other story, but.
Graceann Bennett (04:36)
That’s another book, another story, another podcast. So we’ll do that one. We’ll do that one after this one. So.
A Hindu Pantheon
Gregory Roberts (04:39)
Yeah. Yes. But what I ended up doing was I actually took a bunch of college classes at the local community college about world religions and just did general research on all the religions of the world, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Christianity, Catholicism, you know… Primitivism. I mean, I just researched it and and kind of synthesized my own belief system based on… based on all that.
Graceann Bennett (05:08)
And where’d you land?
NOT EDITED PAST HERE
Gregory Roberts (05:10)
I landed for a little bit in Buddhism and then I felt like that was just this absolute like boring dead end because it was like Buddhist, I mean, my absorption of it was that you just “nothing matters, don’t worry about it.” Like it was just like, I was like, “well then what’s the point?” And then I got, I really got into Hinduism because I became a yoga teacher and got in the acrobatic community and that’s very…
like a line, mean, yoga is a branch of Hinduism, essentially. And I really loved it because like, I studied it then when I went to India, I remember vividly like talking to these people… I spoke quite fluently about Hinduism, and said very confidently, “Yeah, it’s great. You know, there’s like 36 gods!”
And the woman looked at me, she goes, “Thirty-six?!? No, no, no,”
I respond, backpedalling, “Well, what.. there’s like 50?!?”
She’s says, “No… we have more than 300,000 gods.”
Graceann Bennett (06:04)
Wow, that’s a lot of gods.
Gregory Roberts (06:04)
I was like, my God. And my experience of it was like, there was a temple for everything. People had blue skin, green skin. There was elephant heads like Ganesh. It was just this amazing mythology that was alive and colorful. And they’d make movies that were on par with Marvel movies, but with all their gods. Arjuna shot nuclear missiles from his bow.
Just it was just as fascinating. It was like stories, endless stories. And so that entertained me. And in those stories, I also found messages, like they have ahimsa, which is this core belief of no harm. Like you will not harm anyone or any animal or anything actually. But that worked for a while.
Graceann Bennett (06:36)
Mm-hmm. And then what happened?
Enter Satan
Gregory Roberts (06:54)
And then life happened and I got to experience some of the harder edges of life. And I was like, ahimsa is just for wimps. My yoga friends are saying things like– because hardcore ahimsa is basically, “I’m going to be vegan” or even I’m going to be — what is it, there’s one even beyond vegan — “Raw.” As in, “I’ll only eat living plant food, fresh from the vine,” or something like that.
And so I said, “You know what? I need to get tough. I’m gonna eat meat, and actually do stuff, maybe I’ll hurt some people or animals… let God sort it out once we’re done.”
Thou Shalt not Worship Idols
And so I explored what I felt was everything else, spiritually. And I actually kind of, I — this is hard to say, but it’s just — this shows where my head was and how desperate I was. And this was when I was robbing banks.
I actually got into Satanism, and I went online and I bought this sculpture of Baphomet, this goat headed God with six breasts and a bloody skull in his hand, and when it arrived, I put it on a pedestal in the corner of my office.
I was thinking, “You know what? Fuck it. God’s not listening to me, so I’m just going to worship Satan and… <ha ha ha>.”
It was kind of my joke and my rebellion all rolled into one. And that was about the time that I got arrested for multiple bank robberies and got taken down hard by the FBI.
Graceann Bennett (07:58)
So that wasn’t working out so well for you.
Gregory Roberts (08:16)
Right, right. And so God was like, “You think I’m not listening? How about this!?”
<gestures a sucker punch to the head>
a Desperate Prayer
And, yeah, so within like a month of arriving in jail, what happened is I got arrested and they go into intake, which is like this multi-day process where you’re just like, there’s not much food and you’re just like, they’re fingerprinting you and making sure that you’re a citizen of the United States and all these things. And so I’m in there in intake and I’m realizing that I’m actually in some very serious trouble. And so, you know, about six hours into the intake process, I was in just sitting in the cold cell and I was like, okay.
And I got on my knees and put my head to the ground and focused all my energy and prayed to God and I prayed the prisoner prayer: “God, just get me out of this. I’ll do anything. Just get me out of this.” And I had made the same prayer when I got my first bank robbery arrest a year prior in Huntington Beach California and God had answered — I felt God had answered me. At that time I was looking at a 20 year prison sentence, and I got out after six short months. But… but I had totally forgotten. Oh, because I had said back then, “God, if you get me out this, I’ll never rob a bank again, I swear to God.”
And here I am, a year later, having just gotten caught for robbing another three banks, you know, and making the exact same prayer.
Graceann Bennett (09:15)
Wow. but the Devil is still on your desk.
Gregory Roberts (09:18)
Yeah, yes, the devil’s still on my desk.
Graceann Bennett (09:20)
So you prayed to God, he got you out, and then you kept the Devil. Okaaay.
Gregory Roberts (09:24)
the devil was still on my shoulder… with claws dug in. I actually felt, I really felt like the devil had his claws in my back — I almost got a tattoo of these puncture wounds on my shoulders with blood — well, red tattoo ink — dripping down from them. That’s how I felt. The inescapable claws of demons. And so I made that prayer in Reno jail, and immediately God responds, a booming voice in my head:
“Hey dude, you made the same prayer a year ago–
…and I delivered — and you broke your promise.
So… good luck.”
Graceann Bennett (09:39)
Wow. Okay, so it’s not, so you got, you basically, then what? religiously, what was in your mind? Like did you ever get rid of the Satanism or like when did that?
A Gift Bible
Gregory Roberts (10:05)
Absolutely.
So two things happened. First of all, like, I’d say I was like 48 hours in jail. I’d barely gotten out of intake into my unit at Reno, Reno jail. And and the C.O. was like, “Hey, Roberts, you got mail.” I’m like, Ohhh-Kay. like, I don’t even know who who… I had made like two phone calls. So how would anyone know I’m even here? And the mother of my children, had sent me this really nice leather-bound study Bible with like, it was like, I don’t know, like 2000 pages with notes on everything and color pictures. And she put $100 on my books, so I could buy commissary. and she is a, she’s a true heart blessed woman of a Christian. Like she just gives to everyone all the time and seems to have endless gifts to give. And it really touched me. I was like,
she didn’t have to do that. And that’s actually difficult to do. Like she had to figure out how to send a book into jail and it’s not easy. And she got it done like that. And so I had a book and also you’re not allowed to have leather bound books in jail or prison. this thing was like a $100… it was beautiful. You know, and it was real leather. I would every day I would smell it because I was like this leather is the smell of freedom.
Graceann Bennett (11:09)
Mmm.
Gregory Roberts (11:29)
So I just, kind of started reading it recreationally because I had it. And like I said, it was a really, it was kind of like a history of the Judeo-Christian world because more than half of it was the study notes. Like, know, just giving you the historical context of what the Bible verses were saying, both for the Old and New Testament.
Graceann Bennett (11:29)
Yeah. Okay.
Gregory Roberts (11:55)
But again, that gift just touched me in my heart. I was like, oh my God, I didn’t even ask and she just sent that to me. So that was the first thing.
Smashing Satan
So the second part was… I think it was about 30 days in, I kind of made a little connection in my head. I know it took a while, but I called my fiance at the time and I said, hey, I said, “Can you do me a favor?”
She’s like, “What?”
I said, “Go into my office, get that statue of Satan, go into the shed, get my 30 pound sledgehammer… and take it to the backyard and just smash the fuck out of it. Like just decimate it!”
And she just started laughing. She says, “Oh my God, you made my day. I’m on it! As soon as we hang up, I’m doing it!”
And I mean — because she hated that thing. She used to come in my office — I had a home office –and she used to take sheets and throw them over the statue… So Satan was covered up and couldn’t stare at us anymore.
Graceann Bennett (12:28)
Thank God. Okay. Alright.
Gregory Roberts (12:53)
She hated that thing, and for for good reason. So next time I talked to her on the phone, she was just giggling with glee.
And she’s like, “I did it, it was so fun! I’m so pissed at you, and I just took it all out on that stupid-ass statue, and it’s in a thousand fucking pieces now.” Good.
Little Black Heart
Graceann Bennett (12:55)
Right. Good, well you got, yeah, so then how did you, you talk about in the book, I mean, I’m sure, I mean, there’s a lot of, I mean, we can’t go step by step by step, but you do talk about kind of reading the Bible, and then you talk about having kind of this black heart in a certain way. So, so how do you get to, how does the Bible get in you, or this idea of Christ, and how does that start to kind of work on your heart?
in some kind of way.
Gregory Roberts (13:41)
I did feel that my heart was kind of, I wouldn’t say dead, but pretty damn close to dead. When I visualized my heart, which yoga and other things like teach you to do, all I could feel was like this black diamond, like this piece of shiny coal. Like it was just like, and it was small. It was like that big. And that was just, I mean, that was just what came to me when I thought about it. And it was kind of sad, but it’s what it was.
Graceann Bennett (14:01)
Yes.
Gregory Roberts (14:11)
And that’s where life had led me or where I’d led myself. <long pause>
Um… oh god. So… what was the question again?
Graceann Bennett (14:19)
<Haha> You got too wrapped up into thinking about your little black heart. So… you go and you have this diamond in the rough, I guess, if we can call it that, this black, tight, hard heart. And they do talk about hearts being hardened, right, in the Bible, right, if you have a hard heart.
Gregory Roberts (14:23)
I did. Yeah. Yes, yeah.
Phoenix Rising : Born Again
Surrendering
Graceann Bennett (14:40)
So were there any scriptures or verses that really spoke to you when you’re reading the Bible, things that you could even like share with us that spoke to you as you started to, you know, come into Christ?
Gregory Roberts (14:52)
Yeah, I guess the biggest way to frame it is that my intention when I was first incarcerated, and I told my lawyers this, is I wanted to go to trial, and I wanted to make this big speech about how I was Robin Hood, and the banks are evil, and I’m representing the people and doing the right thing by taking what is ours in the first place. Like I was the righteous robber, you know, like I was gonna just stick it to the man and be on the federal public record saying this stuff, and it would be the most famous speech ever.
You know, was my delusion. I mean, I was really just going in, fighting and swinging. And my lawyers heavily advised against it. But I was like, you know, this is my life. I’m gonna do it. And I had done it once before in a smaller trial, and it worked out wonderfully, sort of. But but federal is a whole other level. And so that was my plan. And I was reading the Bible. I wasn’t really Christian yet, but I was reading it and it kept.
Graceann Bennett (15:22)
Sort of.
Gregory Roberts (15:51)
You know, really: Jesus is about surrender and this master-servant relationship where he is the master because he serves his people.
Graceann Bennett (16:02)
Mm-hmm.
Gregory Roberts (16:05)
And I just started to really meditate on that. I doing the right path by fighting and basically giving a big middle finger to the federal judge and the FBI and all the people?
To Obey Authority
And so there’s this one part of the Bible about authority. It’s actually Paul. It’s in the New Testament. And he basically says, you need to respect authority. …because God put authority in place in the world.
“Let everyone be subject
to the governing authorities, for
there is no authority
except that
which God has established.
The authorities that exist
have been established
by God.”
— Romans 13:1
And it’s not all the time, right? Like, there’s a beautiful scene where Jesus goes into the temple and turns over the moneylenders tables, like basically a violent protest. he takes their tables full of money and turns them upside down in the temple and …pretty much a riot.
“Jesus entered the temple courts
and drove out all who were buying and selling there.
He overturned the tables of the money changers
and the benches of those selling doves.
“It is written,” he said to them,
“ ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’
but you are making it ‘a den of thieves.’”
— Matthew 21:12-13
So there are exceptions, but in general, Paul is saying like, God put authority on earth for a reason. And in general, unless you know, there’s harm involved, these are structures that the people and God have put in place. So respect those structures. And I kept meditating on that
Reconsidering Anarchy
Like, am I really like a burn it down anarchist? Like, am I encouraging everyone to rob banks? And what would that look like in the world? You know, it would be like murder and mayhem. I mean, for real. And actually, more I thought about it, was like, because I was mad at the banks. And I was trying to robbing them to get back at them. And I was like, you know, the banks are built by the people.
Graceann Bennett (17:06)
Hehehe. Right? Mm.
Gregory Roberts (17:25)
Like, I mean, I know they’re corporations, but initially, like the idea of it is people want a place to store their valuables and store their databases of dollars. And, you know, it’s a consensual service. Like you don’t have to put your money in bank. You can have $100,000 under your mattress and live that life. But, you know, I kind of started to respect it and it brought me around at the same time.
Gregory Roberts (17:52)
I just kept reading the Bible every day. It’s all I was allowed in solitary was the Bible and the dictionary.
A Purpose Driven Life
Then one day, this bookshelf showed up on the tier, special access only, one book at a time allowed… and it only had two kinds of books: Christian books, and these weird Harlequin romance novels from like the 1950s.
I skipped the romance novels. But there was a book called Purpose Driven Life, written by a preacher called Rick Warren. I picked it up and started reading it. It was like nothing I’d ever read before in my life. That book really was the linchpin and the keystone that that book changed my life.
Because it came into — I like many people had an adversarial relationship with Christianity because of the hierarchy, the patriarchy and the structure of the church. And what I really came to realize, and Rick Warren did a beautiful way of voicing it, he’s like, it’s not about the church. It’s not about buildings. And Jesus said the same thing. He’s like, you know, it’s about your heart and people and how you choose to live your life. And so when I got past the institution that is the church or the churches and got into what Jesus was actually saying in the Bible.
Accepting Jesus
Gregory Roberts (18:50)
Then it really started speaking to me and I got to a turning point where, you know, the purpose driven life was like, you know, I think it was like chapter seven. It’s like, hey, accept Jesus into your heart. Like I challenge you to do this. And I was like, fuck no, no, no, you’re not. I’m not doing it. Like I’m not surrendering and I’m not, you surrender is for wimps and this that the other. And finally, I was like, you know what? I’m in my own cell. Like no one’s with me here. You know, this is just like:
What’s the worst that can happen?
You know, if I just like say in my heart and my head, okay, I surrender to Jesus, make, tell me what you want me to do, Lord, and I’m on your path. So I struggled, but I finally got to the point where I was like, all my other decisions, including Satanism, have led me to this cell. And it kind of sucks. And I’m looking at like living 60 years in this cell. Is that what I want? Like, maybe there’s another option. And so it was like, 3 in the afternoon or something, was like, I’m just going to do it. And I said like, you know, Jesus come into my heart. I’m open and ready to I’m ready to serve God and anything you want me to do in life. I’m your servant and and I’m good to go. Like just just tell me what you want me to do. and and the other key of Christianity is that like Jesus died on the cross so that you’re forgiven for your sins.
And God knows, I’ve committed some sins. And all at once, just hit me where before I was like, part of my belief was that I’m the God in the universe. I, Gregory Roberts, am God and I control everything and I’ve chosen everything. It’s very arrogant, egotistical thing. And by putting this concept of God above me and saying, hey, I’m ready to serve, just tell me what to do, I’m doing it.
Graceann Bennett (20:20)
Right.
Gregory Roberts (20:47)
And it just like unlocked this freedom and this, and then the forgiveness at the same time, I was like, oh my God, I’m forgiven!! And I felt that black diamond of a heart just like explode and disintegrate. And like this new kind of just like bloody beating, beautiful, like thing just appeared inside me. It was like, it was like truly like, they say like born again. I felt like I was born again.
Graceann Bennett (20:51)
Okay.
Gregory Roberts (21:16)
In that minute, in that second. And I just started crying and laughing, like happy tears. And I pretty much like sang and danced and cried and laughed for most of the next 72 hours. I was just like, my life is new. Like I’ve got, it’s all good and I have nothing to worry about. I called my lawyers. I was like, look, let’s do a plea deal. Like, I don’t know what I was thinking. I am not gonna make an ass of myself in front of the judge. Tell me what you can get me.
Graceann Bennett (21:22)
All right.
Gregory Roberts (21:44)
and everything started working well. I also, I wildly evangelized to all my family and friends and I was scared because, you know, like I thought they were gonna think I was a crazy person. And most of their responses was, well, it took you long enough. Yeah. Yeah. Like.
Graceann Bennett (22:03)
Really? Even your parents that believe it, or even your dad who is still alive, I mean, is still alive right now, but just a scientist, what did he think?
Gregory Roberts (22:14)
You just gave me chills, Graceann, and that’s always my positive side of things moving the right way. Even my dad was like, you know what? I’m happy for you and I’m proud of you. Like, he, and because, and I’ve had a lot of conversation with him and this is slightly private, but I will just say that like,
You know, he has that empty hole in his heart, right? And I wouldn’t even say an empty hole. Like he had such a rough time with religion as a kid, like in a very institutionalized way that he rebelled against it. So I think he has his own private model and understanding as we all do. But, you know, he kind of recognized that I needed what I got in terms of that. And it was a very compassionate, beautiful conversation with him. And with most of my…
I think all of my family, friends, and children. The other half of it is I really feel like they, we’ve been into this in other episodes, but they felt the shift of me from like this arrogant, demanding asshole into someone who cared about them and wanted to listen to their stories and wanted to help them and serve. mean, that was a big shift at that moment that hasn’t changed since.
Graceann Bennett (23:02)
That’s great.
And that makes sense in terms of the king part, the servant king, being of service as a king that we talked about before. So that’s beautiful. So were there any other scriptures that you would go back to, any passages that you would read? How did you practice your faith in prison? What was that like?
The Bible
a Magical Book
Gregory Roberts (23:52)
This is the second Bible that I got. It’s leather.
Graceann Bennett (23:56)
Wow.
Gregory Roberts (23:59)
And as you can see, I had a fair amount of notes in there.
<lifts up and shows Bible spine, full of post-it notes and tabs sticking out the side>
Graceann Bennett (24:03)
Wow. huh.
Gregory Roberts (24:06)
I mean, my favorite, have so many, so maybe I should just, I wanna talk about the Bible as a book really quickly because my relationship with it changed across the course of my incarceration. I kinda came to feel of the Bible as a magical book in that, like there are notes in here that I’ve where it’s like, this passage means this.
You know, and I put the date, like, you know, and a little, like a post-it saying this, this, and I read it now and I’m like, no, it doesn’t. Like that, like that’s, what? Like, what was I thinking? And at first that took me off guard because I was like, I thought I unlocked it and now it’s this. But I came to realize it’s a dynamic book. Like it gives you what you need in the moment and on the day that you choose to consult it.
Gregory Roberts (25:03)
And your interpretation of a phrase or a sermon or a passage can be this on one year and this on another year and that’s okay because it’s a dance. It’s a cosmic dance and it’s giving you what you need in that moment. So I have had many experiences with the Bible like consulting it as an oracle sort of thing or just when I need guidance in times of stress.
So you wanted to know the one that I repeatedly come back to, huh?
Graceann Bennett (25:33)
Okay. Oh yeah, I wanted you to share one that you come back to. Yes. Okay. So you’re ahead of me. Yes.
Do Not Worry
Gregory Roberts (25:40)
The one I repeatedly come back to, I believe it’s Matthew 6, verse 26. It’s verses 26 to 34. it essentially is, it says, do you think that the robes of Solomon, who at the time was like the Elon Musk of the world, like the richest king on the planet, could even compare to the colors of the lilies in the field, like the flowers in the field.
Gregory Roberts (26:08)
And do you think that like the sparrow that’s flying across the lake or the ocean is worried at all about having a home to arrive to when it gets to other side? It’s like, no, because why? Because God takes care of these beings and these animals and these creatures and blesses them. And so if he’s taking care of the sparrow and the flowers in the field, what do you human have to worry about? You’re like God’s chosen creation on planet Earth. Like you’re the highest expression of evolution of…
God’s intelligent design, whatever you want to call it. So you think you’re not taken care of? Like there’s nothing to worry about. So, and that really, huh?
“Therefore I tell you:
do not worry about your life,
what you will eat or drink;
or about your body,
what you will wear.
Is not life more than food,
and the body more than clothes?
Look at the birds of the air;
they do not sow or reap
or store food away in barns,
and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.
Are you not much more valuable than they?
Can any one of you by worrying
add a single hour to your life?
And why do you worry about clothes?
See how the flowers of the field grow.
They do not labor or spin.
Yet I tell you that
not even Solomon in all his splendor
was dressed like one of these.
If that is how God clothes
the grass of the field,
which is here today
and tomorrow is thrown into the fire,
will he not much more clothe you
—you of little faith?
So do not worry, saying,
‘What shall we eat?’ or
‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘
What shall we wear?’
For the ignorant
chase after all these things,
and your heavenly Father
knows that you need them.
But seek first his kingdom
and his righteousness,
and all these things
will be given to you as well.
Therefore do not worry about tomorrow,
for tomorrow will worry about itself.
Each day brings
enough trouble of its own.
— Matthew 6:25-34
Graceann Bennett (26:47)
Even with their bleak prison, you’re still not worried? Like, how does that factor in? Because sometimes you’re in really bleak, horrible situations, and then you read that, and you might think, well, he’s not really taking care of us. you could see it. Like, you could see the beauty in even when you’re even in prison, reading that scripture?
Gregory Roberts (27:08)
Absolutely, yeah, because when it comes down to the wire, I mean, so there’s this dynamic thing of like, why am I in this terrible situation? You know, but then what faith is, is saying two things. I’m in this situation because I need to be in this situation to learn a lesson. And two, as long as I do my best, God’s gonna do the other half and he or she or it will see me through.
Like the higher power will see me through. And it’s a partnership, it’s a teamwork. So just, it’s kind of, I mean, that’s the core of faith is trusting that you are exactly where you need to be at this moment. Perfection and no, and there’s, and stress or worry is never going to do you any good. Like all stress or worry is just focusing on negative outcomes. So instead of, you know, instead of spending an iota of energy on stress or worry, spend it on self-care and spend on solving the problem that you perceive.
Graceann Bennett (28:12)
Right. Yeah, taking action and then you’ll get some extra help.
Gregory Roberts (28:17)
There it is. Yeah, yeah. What is it? Like,
God helps those who help themselves.
Graceann Bennett (28:21)
Right, okay, no that’s great. How is… well, what’s your relationship to God, Christ, Church — what’s happening with you now? You have your Bible, so it sounds like you’re still reading that. But what is it like outside of prison, the prayer circles you had in there, and what are you doing now to nurture your faith?
Going to Church
Gregory Roberts (28:41)
I went to a few churches and I went to a really dead church in Orange County actually. It was a decent sized building that had 25 people in it. I it was empty and I was like, huh? I wasn’t vibing with the preacher. actually walked out mid sermon. I went to a really alive church here in Santa Monica called Vintage.
But I also they took on some of the more difficult, challenging passages, you might even call them misogynist passages in the New Testament, you know, where Timothy — Paul’s protégé — is speaking about how women should behave and such:
“A woman should learn in quietness
and full submission.
I do not permit a woman to teach
or to assume authority over a man;
she must be quiet.”
— 1 Timothy 2:9-12
And the preacher did a whole sermon about how, “Well, this is how its written… but it’s really symbolic and it’s contextual to history.”
I’m hearing this, and thinking, What?!? I mean, it’s basically like the clergy doing this massive backpedal and, you know, making excuses about why it’s written like that. And I concluded: You know what? I don’t need anybody to bend, bully or attempt to mould my understanding of this Book. I will have my own understanding of what these words mean, and how they apply to my life.
And… that particular passage is often used to attempt to conform women to a certain behavior… or worse, to judge women who do not conform to that model… And the last thing that I use the Bible for is to judge other people — women, men, friends, enemies… anybody. Jesus said — with complete clarity — he said, “Judge not lest you be judged.”
“Judge not,
lest ye be judged.”
— Matthew 7:1
That concept is absolutely fundamental to the philosophy of Jesus: not to cast aspersions or to judge anyone else, because every single person in world goes through their own shit. “Who amongst us has not sinned? Not one!” Right? Like it just …and each person has their own journey and everyone’s got their mistakes, sins, and regrets to deal with.
For all have sinned,
and each falls far short
of the true Glory of God.
— Romans 3:23
I mean, I do believe that everyone has sinned in their own way, but I’m not gonna judge another person. God will judge the sins. You know, when we’re dead — the judgment can’t be cast until the life is over. Period.
Graceann Bennett (30:20)
Right, okay, so then, so you’re on your own personal journey then… and now?
Gregory Roberts (30:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, my relationship, yeah, with Jesus is primarily — I spent thousands of hours in prison and jail, reading and studying the Bible. I actually did complete it — I read the entire thing, which is… challenging. There’s some really rough parts in there! But, you know, I got a deep familiarity with it, and I took a ton of notes.
But my basic thing is I have — I mean, it’s pretty simple actually — is that Jesus says to love God with all your heart and all your soul and to love your neighbor as yourself… love your neighbor as your highest calling.
And then the third part of that is: Who is your neighbor? And the basic answer is: Well, you have 8 billion neighbors. As in: every single human in the world is your neighbor. And that’s it. Simple!
So it’s like, you know, everything else is kind of window dressing and, and, the last thing I ever want to get into is like dogmatic or doctrinal arguments with other Christians or anyone for that matter. Cause we make our own choices and live our own lives. And some of the, some of the people who I feel are the best embodiments of Christian Christianity or Christians on this earth have nothing to do with the church or the Bible. They’re just living their lives as good people, you know? So like, I’m good with that.
I think what we can do is just choose to align ourselves, who to align ourselves with as friends, chosen family, blood family… and to do good work in the world. That’s it. So my relationship was highly personal. Jesus is in my heart and I’m not putting that on anyone. I’d invite anyone to go through a similar journey as mine, because I found it to be one of the most liberating things that ever happened to me in my life.
It fundamentally changed my entire outlook on life for the better. And pretty much all my friends and family have told me that as well.
Graceann Bennett (32:27)
And they can see… see it in you. I mean, they can see that manifest in terms of who you are right now. Yeah, that’s great. Okay, any parting… you want to read a scripture, any parting words of advice or anything you want to leave us with as we wrap up this episode?
An Easter Sermon
Gregory Roberts (32:34)
Yes! Well you know, Easter is coming up.
And Easter is traditionally the celebration of the passion of Christ when he was… well, you know: the whole thing… where, well:
Judas betrayed him,
He had the last supper
. . . with the disciples.
He got arrested by Rome
. . . and then crucified,
hung on the cross to die,
. . . died, was buried,
and then came back to life.
It’s a really — it is a truly beautiful story.
Your Personal Resurrection
And I’d encourage anyone to read that story. I mean, that’s the gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John… go ahead and read any version of that that you’re comfortable with, and then work to both internalize and personalize the narrative of the Passion… the passion of Christ. Because the fundamental truth that I felt about that story is:
We all have that opportunity to embrace our inner Christ, and to be born again. So we can die. We can kill our past. We can kill — or have killed — the the negative parts of ourselves, and come back to life as a being of light and a being of serving and gifts.
That to me is… basically, that’s sunrise on Easter day. Get up at 5 a.m. on Easter morning, watch the sunrise from wherever you’re at, and think about your new life on this beautiful earth, at this amazing moment in history.
Graceann Bennett (34:12)
Alright, yes! Every day is a chance to be a new human, right? So that’s — it’s inspiring and you’re on this path to redemption and all the things that you’re creating for the world, so this story is very inspiring.
So thanks for sharing your story and we’ll put, we’ll have to put some of those verses in the show notes so that they can find those passages in the Bible. I’ve never even heard of the Study Bible that has all of those notes and pictures… the additional context that that your, that the mother of your children gave you, with all the notes.
Gregory Roberts (34:40)
Yes! An epic book! The NIV Study Bible.
Graceann Bennett (34:41)
I’d never even heard of that. And then you have yours. All right. Yeah, no, it’s fascinating. I’m sure a lot of people have some questions for you later. Anyway, so thank you and thanks for this time and insight.
Gregory Roberts (34:44)
All right. Thank you, Graceann.
And of course: all the juicy details of these, and many more amazing stories, are in Pirate Soldier King, the book.
Graceann Bennett (35:03)
There we go, okay! Until next time then. Thank you. Peace out!
OMG, it gave us the hearts.
Gregory Roberts (35:15)
Did you see that?
Graceann Bennett (35:11)
I want to do the hearts.
Where did it get the hearts from?
How’d you get the hearts?
Gregory Roberts (35:15)
It’s magic!
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