This is the full (edited & augmented) transcript of e002 of the PSK Podcast, in which Graceann Bennett interviews author Gregory Roberts about topics and details of his True Crime / Prison memoir, Pirate Soldier King. In particular, this segment talks about Prison Chess, and all the facets of how that game plays out, both in solitary, and in the open yard.
Graceann Bennett (00:01)
Hi there, we’re here with Gregory Roberts, the writer of Pirate Soldier King. And we’re just going to get into a few topics with the author of the book, and… the liver of the story. So. Good to see you, Gregory.
Gregory Roberts (00:17)
Good to see you, Graceann.
GB (00:30)
All right. So one of the things that stood out to me in reading the book is: you have an Introduction, and in it you talk about the Fall and the Redemption. You talk about what kind of story this is. And so people might be thinking: Am I reading a True Crime story? Am I reading a Prison Novel? What is the actual story that you’re telling here, and what’s the core focus or, rather… what are you intending for the audience to get out of it?
GR (00:45)
Well. That’s a lot to unpack. First: It certainly has some True Crime elements.
And I did that just because that’s of interest [to people] and it’s kind of important for the setup, just to realize that there was some very serious federal crimes committed that led to the prison sentence. And then there’s a tremendous amount of detail about my time spent in incarceration, which encompassed, I want to say, at least 12 [separate] facilities, between detention centers and jails and prisons.
I was held for trial and shuttled between federal districts because I was charged in two separate districts… and then COVID happened, complicating matters further, and then finally I got to my destination prison. But that’s, but I think that’s just merely the story and the setting… the framework upon which greater truths hang.
What I’m really trying to communicate with the book is the opportunity that this experience gave me — that the lengthy prison sentence gave me — to really kind of consider my life choices up to that point, and to see what I was really doing in the world, and to give me a chance to plan to correct those choices and to give me the space to really make a massive course correction in my life. And perhaps a cautionary tale as well, for anyone who thinks that “crime is cool” or something along those lines…
(thinks for a second) …because certainly part of the reason [for my crimes] — well hold on, first of all: I take full responsibility for my choices: 100%. And… and I loved Point Break (1991). And I saw that movie and I thought: Yeah! I’m gonna rob banks, and surf. That’s it. Yeah, sounds perfect! And when the FBI finally gets me, I’m gonna jump into a wave and never be seen again. So it sounded… it looked really good to me, as it was presented on the big screen. Inspirational, even. Oh! And just so I don’t forget: I’m gonna skydive too. Yes, definitely skydiving has to be a part of it.
But the reality of it is — at least for me personally — I did not find the life of crime to be a very pleasant lifestyle.
GB (02:56)
And what were you thinking it would be? I mean, you talk about it is a cautionary tale and you tell the readers “don’t even think about it.” So what, why did you put that in the book? To make sure that people don’t even think about it and that they do follow the law, right? So, what is the–
GR (03:10)
Because the last thing I want the book to be is a glorification of crime, some (anti)heroism in “sticking it to the man” or something like that.
I robbed banks for totally selfish reasons and I’m not proud of it and I feel that I was putting a desire for monetary wealth ahead of relationships, to put it quite simply. And that had consequences in my life and continues to have consequences in my life, my family relationships and things that are still healing.
So, you know, there are easier ways, there are much easier ways to make money [than to rob banks].
And there’s probably better ways to build quality relationships. This is the path that I chose and the path that I went down. Again, I hope that there’s some learning; I’m actually sure that there’s some powerful wisdom in there, embodied in these stories. Again, the prison portions specifically, which are the majority of the book, I was kind of a “stranger in a strange land” in that environment. It was not something that was in my life plan.
GB (04:31)
Right.
GR (04:31)
And I ended up, because it was a federal crime and because of my multiple escape attempts, I was classified as a flight risk and as a high security risk, so I ended up being sent to some of the most serious prison facilities in America — Victorville, Beaumont, ICE…
GB (04:50)
Well, one thing that I think is interesting that I’m picking up on is talking about healing. Then when you think about this book and what you hope that it will provide for people, but also for yourself and your relationships, because you bring that up a lot. You talk about your kids. You talk about the relationships that you sacrificed for doing something that’s more selfish. So thinking about this book and writing this book, because you’re really putting yourself out there in terms of telling the story. So what do you hope to get from it personally and what would you help the world to get from it?
GR (05:25)
Personally, the book is just the first pillar of a broader platform. I feel like I have a lot of important messages for people, for humanity. Prior to my bank robbery career, I was a serial tech entrepreneur. We did a lot of AI work long before AI was what it is today. And I have a pretty good bead on that. And… I just don’t think that the world is ready for AI at all. The things that happen in the next 10 years, maybe even the next three years, are going to be seismic.
So I have some pretty strong messages about that — about humans and AI — and it really comes back to the same things, like: What’s truly important? Human relationships, face to face, physical health, the natural things, the things that make us human. And what’s not important: well, try this: working on a computer, pushing meaningless numbers and spreadsheets around on a screen all day. So it kind of goes to: What’s our life purpose? And I feel, from a lifetime of exploring that question, that I have good guidance on that for people.
And then, beyond that high-level message, I just have confidence that it’s a powerful story. So many people have told me to write the book. I just have confidence that there’s parts of the story that will resonate with people that I’m not even clear on. Like, this is my story, I’m trying to be as authentic and truthful as possible in it. And I just am confident that it’s — I mean, I’m sure it’s “interesting.” And then I think there’s some messages embedded in the narrative there, too, that will resonate with different people in different ways.
GB (07:11)
Yes, I definitely think — and we’ll get into some of the chapters in more detail later — but some of the time in solitary where you are totally by yourself, kind of contemplating lots of things. I think there’s a lot, a lot of richness in some of those chapters, which I’m excited for the audience to be able to dive into.
Okay, so now that we’re covered the high level, now we’re going to take a divergent path — something a little like the lighter, maybe more fun part of prison. I don’t know if fun is the right word, but–
GR (07:38)
Fun works.
Prison Chess: Humble Beginnings
Graceann Bennett (07:39)
Right, there’s fun parts. So one thing I found interesting reading the book was you talked about playing chess. And you talked about chess as war, which is interesting, but it’s also a fascinating game. So tell me a little bit about the kinds of chess you’d play in prison. I had no idea people played chess in prison, but that does make sense, thinking about it more. So tell me a little bit, or tell our audience a little bit about that part of prison life.
Gregory Roberts (08:10)
Well, for a certain segment of the prison population, chess is very important. Seriously. I mean, we get actual professional chess magazines sent in there that, for instance, break down all the Magnus Carlsen matches move by move, including detailed commentary. Inmates take it very seriously. Now me, I knew the rules of chess… or as one might say jiokingly “Yeah, I know how to move the pieces around on the board.”
And so when I first saw a chessboard, when I first got into jail actually, I was like, ha ha ha. Like, I’m a smart guy. These are street criminals and drug addicts. I’m gonna whoop some ass in chess. And… and I got destroyed. I mean, I got taken to school. And I think I lost my first… 20 games. And I was like, am I stupid?!?
You know, I was thinking, how is this possible!?? So I had my people send me in a book called Chess for Dummies, you know, and I thought, this is gonna get me some basic principles, some foundations of basic strategy. And I think, studying that book, I was able to eke out one win in the next 10 games.
But after that win, I saw a ray of hope. And I was still shellshocked by either how good everybody was or how bad I actually was… so then I got pretty serious, studying the book, and then I just started asking people, I would be like: “Hey, what’s the deal? Why am I losing so badly?” And I asked people who I felt were the best players — there’s a pecking order and you figure it out pretty quick, because the better players won’t even bother to play the amateurs. So yeah, I started taking it pretty seriously. And then I got placed into solitary confinement, again.
And — amazingly — in solitary, I could actually play more chess than I could in GP (general population) because we all made our own boards and just yelled the moves under the doors, all day long. So we just would be sitting there by the door yelling, at the top of our lungs: “B1 to B6.” and then: “Queen. Takes. Knight!”
Graceann Bennett (10:04)
Ha Ha.
Gregory Roberts (10:12)
And then the worst part would when you said that, and your opponent yells back: “my knight’s not on B6!” I’d be thinking then, oh noooooo. Like, what are you talking about? [ed note: after this happened one too many times — conflicting board positions — I established a code, using military call signs: Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, etc… and each player would repeat their move twice, and the opponent would echo / confirm it. this system prevented a lot of anger and hate, making sure that the boards were synchronized at all times.]
But yes, so everyone would have their own board, but we’d move each other’s pieces, two boards mirroring eachother, and play that way. And then I could be playing, I don’t know, like 12 games a day. yeah. And all that happening, all just by yelling under the door, all while in solitary.
Graceann Bennett (10:34)
Wow.
one Bible, one Dictionary
Gregory Roberts (10:41)
Our solitary was very strict. For instance, I was only allowed to have two books, total: one Bible and one dictionary.
But I figured out a workaround. I befriended one of the guards and I had my people on the outside, so I had these chess books sent in — but the guards wouldn’t give me any of them. They’d say: “Yeah, we’re putting in your property… but you can’t have them to read, because you’re in solitary, and that’s the rules. You can only have a Bible, and a dictionary.” So I had this — well, this brainstorm — and I called up one of my people on the outside. I said, “Look, find me a book that’s called The Bible of Chess or something like that, and send me the Chess Bible!
And — miraculously — they did. And it came in, the guard opens it and he goes, what’s this? I go, not skipping a beat: “That’s my Bible!” The guys looks at me kind of funny and just says: “Okay, okay, Roberts, you’ve been in here a long time. Here you go, enjoy your ‘bible’.” So… he actually gives it to me. And I immediately run to the corner of my cell, rip off the cover, and made a new cover out of paper and I write “Bible” on it in really big letters. But that turned out to be a really good book, actually.
The Russian Master
Graceann Bennett (11:47)
What did you learn from the Bible of Chess?
Gregory Roberts (11:50)
What I learned from it? I mean, I learned basic foundational strategy and… well, chess is kind of like this infinite ladder of skill where, as you advance, you’re better than a whole bunch of people… but the people who are better than you are not just 10% better, they’re more like 10 times better than you or, in the case of a grandmaster a hundred times better than you. And I’m not kidding; there are plenty of examples of a grandmaster playing 10, 20 games simultaneously, against opponents that would utterly smite you or me… and the grandmaster wins every one… all of them. That’s the level difference we’re talking about.
So, to address that, we do handicaps: where if someone is really so much better, then we’d take a pawn off the board, or maybe even take a Bishop off the board. That equalizes it… balances the power of a beginner versus an intermediate. Well, that’s all good. Then one day, this Russian guy comes in — and when a new person comes into the tier, everyone chants “new meat! new meat!” or “fresh fish! fresh fish!”…as in, here comes a n00b, we own this fucking tier… we’re going to eat this new person for breakfast.
And the Russian dude comes out swinging, announcing to the tier: “Yo, people: I’ve already done six years in the feds. I ain’t worried about you all, not one bit.” And he had this strong Russian accent. And so on a hunch — you know, Russians play chess — I yell, under the door: “So, do you play chess?” And he just starts laughing.
Russia yells back: “Do I play chess? No, I own chess! I was the best person on the entire yard at Lompoc. Nobody could beat me.”
And I’m thinking: “OK, sure, buddy. Yeah, of course you are.”
And then he goes, “…and who’s the best person here? Lets play!” And.. well, the best at the time, it wasn’t me. It was actually this black guy named Champ, a real street hustler> He was all full of confidence and bluster, 24/7… but also quick skillful. He had the skills to back up his mouth… at least in chess.
So Champ says: “I’ll kick your ass!” and then he’s SO confident that he follows up with “I’ll bet you right out of the gate: three meals. Know this, Russia: I’m gonna eat your next three meals when I when I kick your ass in this game! So, make a board. I’ll wait.”
Russia replies: “Board? I don’t need a board. I’ll play in my head.” (this is an impressive skill that super high level players can do; they simply close their eyes, and they can visualize the whole board… all 64 squares, the locations of each of the 32 pieces) “Sure, buddy let’s go.. right now.” Champ is shocked. But he’s already in for it. And the whole tier goes silent. We all set up our boards real quick and stick our ears to the door slots so we can move our pieces and follow along… and that goddam Russian, OMG. That dude mated Champ in — I don’t know, I want to say like 18 moves or something — he simply destroyed him. The Russian just took Champ to school.
And all of us on the tier, we were all just aghast, dayaaaaamm… our local here had been toppled! and Champ? Champ was really mad. Seriously he was, because in addition to losing his pride and hubris, in wide open public for all to hear, he had also lost his next three meals… and they were already starving us anyways.
Graceann Bennett (13:45)
That’s funny. How did you… you built some relationships on the chess board. In the book, you talked about how you taught your celly how to play chess. Go into that a bit.
Gregory Roberts (13:52)
Yes, well he wasn’t my celly initially; I taught him how to play chess, actually, while we were both in solitary — and then we ended up being cellies later. Oh, and then, as cellies, we ended up fighting over chess game. Yeah, he was a fun guy and I just taught him the basic moves — the rules — and he actually got pretty good. He got to the level where I could normally beat him, but he was within shooting range of me, and sometimes, if I got sloppy or overconfident, he could beat me. So it was fun, fun playing with him.
Crafting Chess Sets from Soap
Graceann Bennett (14:26)
and you’re saying you made the chess board out of soap? How do you actually have a chess board in solitary?
Gregory Roberts (14:31)
Well, we were allowed to have paper and pencils. We could have something like 30 sheets of paper, and two pencils at a time. Not normal pencils though. They were these stubby little rubberized golf pencils… bendy, so you couldn’t stab someone with it. And so initially you would just like tear up the paper into little squares and, you know, write the label on each piece, like P:pawn, K:king, B:bishop and all that… but I’m kind of artistically bent.
So I wanted to have a more aesthetically pleasing board, a little higher end, and also: we’d have the flimsy little squares of paper — the pieces — on top of a paper board. And when they would turn on the AC systems, these huge gusts of wind would burst under the door slot, and it would blow all the pieces off the board, right in the middle of a game. So I got frustrated — you invest a lot of time, thought and energy into your games, and I’m thinking: I’m not going to have that happen again, because it just wrecks the game. I mean, you try to recover it… people take the game quite seriously… so you’re both trying to remember where the all pieces were, and what the last 10 moves were, to recreate the position. But you rarely could agree. So I was like, all right: I’m gonna solve this.
So I just saved up a bunch of soap, cut it into perfectly square pieces, and made these cool drawings of all the pieces. I then pasted the drawings on the top of the chunks of soap. So I had these cool little cubes for each of my pieces, and they were heavy, and felt good in the hand, and they didn’t get blown around when the AC came on.
Chess is War. It can get Physical.
Graceann Bennett (15:51)
Funny. Well, also: one of the things you talked about in the book, you said that some of the biggest fights happened because of chess games.
Gregory Roberts (15:58)
Well, not the biggest fights on the yard, per se. But mine, yeah — my fights, my fights were often predicated by prison chess games… games gone sideways. Yeah. I would just lose myself sometimes, get too deep into the game. I mean, I tried — tried to learn prison etiquette, which is basically: don’t insult people, you know, don’t offend people, keep it respectful… but I’d get so excited sometimes that I’d jump up and say “Checkmate, bitch!!” and and it… just… that kind of attitude, contempt and aggression does not go over well at all in prison.
So it came to pass, actually, with the guy who I taught chess when we were cellies. We were on lockdown for a long time, and I didn’t say “bitch” but I was hella aggressive and cocky; I just delivered the checkmate with such force and confidence, slamming down the key piece with a wicked smile, so cocky that he was really offended, and he just exploded, stood up, and ripped his shirt off and started storming around the cell for a little bit… and he was an amateur boxer.
I mean, this guy was totally stacked, built, ripped. And then he just, just, I mean, he was trying to vent, to resolve his anger, so he says, “you can’t talk to me like that and not fight me.”
And I was like, “No, I ain’t fighting you, man.” I’m thinking — fighting, that’s not my style. My internal narrative was: “I’m a lover, not a fighter.” At that point, I had not been in a fight yet in prison. I didn’t really understand what was going on. I thought I’d just remain calm, and the situation would diffuse, and resolve itself. But a prison cell has no vents. There is no where for the energy to go. And so he’s still storming around, his muscles twitching, his face totally red, and he says: “Look, I’ll give you a free punch. Lets Go!”
I simply say: “Nope.”
So he says: “I’ll give you two free punches.”
I’m still sitting there, calm as a bomb, with him ranting, and I say, again: “Nope.”
He’s exasperated, at the end of his wits. Why won’t this WhiteBoy fight me?!? So he makes his final offer: “I’ll give you 10 free punches!!! let’s go, nigga!!!.”
Truly: I should have taken him up on that one… for real. But I just sat still and said, for the third time: “Nop–” And at exact time the word “nope” was coming out of my mouth, he just <“BOOM!”>… and he hit me so hard that my head snapped back and slammed against the cement wall behind me, and I immediately got KO’d… and I woke up with my head sideways, staring at a puddle of blood on the floor, and I had absolutely no idea what was going on.. no memory of what had just happened.
In fact, I thought my head was against the wall, and I thought, why is there a pool of blood crawling up the wall? That makes no sense… what’s going on? And then there was this automatic thing that welled up from deep inside me that was yelling, my inner voice: “Just get up, get up!! Get up and punch! start swinging! Pain doesn’t matter. Just get up and swing!”
And heeding that inner voice, I just forced myself up like a robot — I was all dizzy and wobbly — and I just started flailing and punching the guy with everything I had — no defense, only offense. And a few seconds later, the guards busted the door open and slammed us onto the ground and put us in cuffs, that was the end of that.
But yeah, from that moment on, I had a little more caution on the checkmates. I’m going to be a respectful player. I’m going to just be like (in a meek little voice): “Hello, <ahem> check mate.”
In fact, I don’t even need to say it. Sometimes I’m not even gonna say “checkmate.” I’m just gonna move the piece, and let the pieces speak for themselves: (mimics moving a rook into checkmate position) “bup!”
Graceann Bennett (18:27)
Yeah. Well that, I mean, so that’s fascinating.
Okay. I’m going to take you along a different road now, ready? Allright, you talked about how you met with a preacher and you’re talking about this Jesus / biblical ideal of “turn the other cheek,” …and you’re really trying to be a “good human” and, you know, take Christ into your heart and all of that. And then how does that work, and figuring out how that peace mentality squares with the actual fighting that happens in prison. So can you talk about that a little bit, addressing that paradox?
(Note to readers. The preacher Graceann mentions is detailed in Chapter XX of the book. We’ll try and talk about it in a later interview. Bottom line: the priest radically changed my perspective, and after that day, I fought without reservation or hesitation. I fought for my life.)
Gregory Roberts (18:55)
Yeah, a little bit. Urgh. Actually, I think I’d rather talk about chess a little more. All right?
Graceann Bennett (19:00)
Okay, let’s keep talking about chess. I’m curious because of the prison chess antics getting you into fights, but we’re okay. Well let me ask you this then: were you in the “turn your other cheek” mode of Gregory Roberts when you said, “I don’t want to hit you.” Like, was that your mentality, that you’ve never been in a fight before…
Gregory Roberts (19:16)
No, I’ve been in fights in the free world. Plenty of them.
Graceann Bennett (19:00)
–but not in prison. That was your first fight in prison.
Gregory Roberts (19:16)
Yeah, well : a fight in a cell, which is basically nothing but rigid metal and cement. Very different from a fight in a bar or on a sports field. It’s like nothing but rock hard surfaces and sharp metal edges. And it’s very very small. And there’s —
For comparison, look at an MMA fight: the floor is padded. And those chain link fences on the side are totally flexible. As in, you slam up against the fence, it’s okay.. it flexes a bit, its coated in rubber or plastic. In prison: when you slam up against a concrete wall, or more likely against, say, a quarter-inch-thick solid steel bedpost, you know, I mean, that can seriously mess you up right there. A cell is just a very dangerous place to fight, and there’s no exit. There’s no referee, no escape, no tap-out and no safety. People get killed in prison fights all the time.
So, you know, I mean literally, people just they kill their celly, and stuff them under the bed… and then the guards find the body four days later. I swear, this happens. It happened at Beaumont when I was there. Yeah, because we’re in lockdown, the guards aren’t entering the cells, or checking on anyone.
Graceann Bennett (20:18)
Woah. Four days later?
Gregory Roberts (20:26)
Yep.
Graceann Bennett (20:25)
Wow, okay, that’s crazy. Okay, so back to chess… my god. So, did you ever have any chess tournaments, like actual championships that you organized? Or did any famous chess players come to prison to play with you guys?
Gregory Roberts (20:38)
No, no, no famous players… haha, Graceann… we weren’t allowed visitors, at all. No video visits, and certainly no in person visits. We were a Level 5 yard. But as far as skill level, I would say that there was definitely like “Master” level players in the federal prison. I mean, there’s people there who have been playing in prison and studying the magazines for 20 years or more. And we’ve got plenty of spare time. So if you have the drive, and the discipline, you have the time to get really really good. But it wasn’t so much tournaments. I mean, we had little tournaments in solitary just for fun… 6, 8 players. Everybody would put a meal, or a cookie, into the kitty, and the winner would get all the food. Those were fun.
But on the yards, on the normal yards, it’d be more like the best players would just set up on a table. And there was only like three chess boards per unit, at best. So three chess boards for, what, 128 men? So the games were scarce quantities. In fact, one of the highest honors I got was a gift from a guy who’s…
Boy George
His name is Boy George. He was like a major New York gangster. Got put into the feds when he was like 20 years old; life without parole; heroin dealing. I think he’s on year 31 or 32 of his sentence now, but he’s doing life. And he was absolutely one of my mentors at Beaumont. When I first got to Beaumont, we were on lockdown. So you’d have conversations through the air vents.
You could yell, or shoot kites under the door for your nearest neighbors, but if you wanted to talk between floors or something, you’d shout through the vents. So we’d stand up on top of the lockers and yell “Yo, George! Pick up!” (as in, pick up the phone. translation: hop up on your locker and get your ear to the vent). And so my celly was all excited when I told him I played chess, and he’s jumps up to the vent.
And he goes, “Yo, George! I got a new celly here, Phoenix. (They call me Phoenix. That’s my callsign in prison, what everybody calls me.) And — man, he tell’s me he’s some kind of Grand Master (I had said nothing of the sort. I’m almost panicking. What is Travis up to?). Travis continues: “He’s gonna kick your ass in chess!”
And I hear George say: “Yeah, allright. I look forward to it. Its about time we get some real talent on this tier. I was getting bored.” And I was thinking, “well, all right. here we go. lets see how this plays out.”
Graceann Bennett (22:25)
Haha.
Gregory Roberts (22:27)
Travis was just excited that I played… and he was also trying to get me connections, so that I would survive after he left. I didn’t know it at the time, but the first two people he introduced me to: Bomba, and George. They were pretty much the biggest gangsters on the yard, and most certainly the bosses of our building, building E/F. So Travis tells me: “Look, George loves chess. He’s an awesome dude, and he’s somebody who you need to know. He’s gonna… he’s gonna love playing with you. Don’t worry.”
Well, not five minutes later, a fishing line zips under our door, and Travis looks at me and says: “pull it!”. I do. I pull in something like 10 feet of line, and then thump, thump, thump… there’s like five American chess magazines, strung onto the line, one after the other. And I pull them off the line and start looking at them… full of move-by-move breakdowns of all the world championship games, with commentary… and I’m thinking: “My God, if this guy actually reads these, this is way beyond my level.” Like, like I said, there’s the Magnus games, the Nakamoto games, Wesley So… all that.
Graceann Bennett (22:40)
Fun!
Gregory Roberts (22:52)
Well, maybe. But I can’t even understand the commentary on these matches. I try, but it’s totally beyond me. And immediately George is shouting in the vents. He’s saying: “Yeah, Phoenix! look at page 32 in the December 2019 issue. Isn’t that like the best game ever?!?” And I reply, basically bluffing: “Yeah, that’s a great game. Yeah.” And George seems satisfied, and declares: “Well, as soon as we get out, we’re playing.” And what can I say? I asked for it. So I just say: “okay. we’re on.”
Graceann Bennett (23:11)
Okay. And, so: How did you do against this guy?
Gregory Roberts (23:13)
So he has, he’s like a real gangster… and he has the whole corner of the tier… it’s like his little private office. He’s got a table and chairs set up right outside his cell; invited guests only. So when they finally opened the doors… I think it was like 20 days later, you know, he sets up, he’s got a little table with his chess set laid out perfectly atop it, and I walk up and he says “All right, Phoenix, let’s go.”
So I sit down, we pick our colors, and set up the board. I’m nervous as hell… I decide that aggression is the best strategy. So I played really fast and hard. There’s a thing called simplification where you just trade pieces ferociously. And we do that. Bam Bam Bam, Capture, Capture, Capture. Exchange, Exchange, exchange. So we blow through middlegame quickly and start the endgame. In the endgame you basically have just King, rook, and three pawns each. And all the other pieces have been snatched up off the board.
You’ve sacrificed your queens, the bishops are gone. And it was hard and fast, ferocious. And as luck would have it, I think I took him a little off guard… you never know in a first match, who you’re dealing with. the adrenalin is high… so we’re at end game, and really, neither one of us had a strong advantage. Equal piece values, both decent positions.
But I could kind of tell he was gonna do well and I was not cherishing getting into a long drawn out tactical endgame… a slow death of sorts. So I thought: I’m gonna hedge my bet. I showed up. I did well, We’re even here. So I say: “How about we just do a draw?” Which is, essentially, an agreed upon tie. And he’s looks for a second, looks me in the eye, sizes me up and says: “Yeah, all right, fine. Draw.” I must have breathed an audible gasp of relief. That was a high stress game. It felt like high stakes. Relationally, as well as for chess status.
Graceann Bennett (24:20)
You tied?
Gregory Roberts (24:21)
We did. We agreed to. And then we played again three days later, and he beat me, of course. And he continued to beat me, I think maybe the next 15 games we played. And at some point he realizes the fluke of the first match and he says: “Phoenix, I should never given you that draw on the first game. Like, what was that all about? I think you bluffed me.”But at this point we had earned eachothers basic respect. So I just said: “Well, George, you took it.” And meanwhile, I’m telling all these people on the tier that — yes, George and I had a draw. Little did I know, George was by far the best player on the tier. Almost no one ever beat him. He was a real genius.
Just to give you a sense ofhow good George was. When we were full tilt open, as in… when all the cells were popped, and we had “regular programming,” as in, we were out of our cells almost all day long, from 7am to 9pm… George would set up shop, and lay out his chessboard on the common table… the place where we all plugged in our Mp3 players to charge. It was the only table in the unit that didn’t belong to an explicit race or gang.
So George would post up there, and say : “I’ll play anybody on this tier. Bet is one ice-cream at store, per game.” In otherwords, whoever lost the match, would have to buy an ice-cream — and they were full pints; Blue Bell, which were A-MAZING in the hot Texas summer… a very coveted commissary item — for the winner at store.
I watched a few matches. There normally was a crowd watching, as a) only the best (or stupidest) players would go up against George, and b) it was usually playing different races / gangs, which always added some interest & tension. But it was on neutral ground, the open table. So I’d watch, and yeah, they were pretty high levels.Very few blunders. Layered moves. Tight endgames. I watched two matches and George won both.
But it didn’t hit me how good he was until Comissary day rolled around. We all get back to the tier, with our big ass bags of goodies — mackerel packs, candy bars, new socks — and here comes George. Only has a light loot bag, really. Okay. So he posts up at the table, and says “Collections time.” with a big smile on his face.
I shit you not. Over the next 30 minutes, as everybody trickles back in from commissary, its like a tribute. Before I know it, George has like a stack of 16 pints of ice cream, stacked up on the table behind him. The treasure from all his chess victories. And once he’s got that stack, he calls all his boys over… his workout crew, the Raza… and just starts handing the pints out to his people.
I’m just watching, and I’m like. Not only is that a badass chess player. That’s a baller. Gambling, winning, and sharing. George was the real deal. There are so many stories I could tell you about him…
Graceann Bennett (24:31)
Wow. So… did you ever beat him?
A True Gift: The Chess Set
Gregory Roberts (24:50)
I think I might have beat him… once, possibly. But again, the biggest honor was that, as we got to be friends, as we built a mutual respect… he actually gifted me a chessboard with all the pieces, which is like… impossible to get, through any normal channel. Like you can get a set at camps, but at our prison, while chess sets are supposed to be for sale at commissary, basically they hadn’t had the chessboards in store inventory at Beaumont for more than 10 years.
So the only chessboards on the tier were held by the old-old-timers, and the ballers; there’s probably only 18 chessboards, across the entire prison yard. So the remaining sets were all somewhere between 10 and 30 years old, and those pieces had wear and tear on them… so he gifted me one of those, and i was like jumping up and down — that was so awesome!!
And from then on I could play whoever I wanted whenever i wanted… hell, I could even rent out the set for an hour or a day, tho I did that really infrequently, only with people I really trusted.
Graceann Bennett (25:28)
And you have one at home with you now?
Gregory Roberts (25:33)
Yeah! I took that set out with me. It was such a core part of my experience, and it was one of the most touching gifts I’ve ever gotten in my life. So even tho people offered me up to $500 to buy it — and that’s a lot of money in prison — even tho they wanted to buy it, I knew it was coming home with me. When I walked out of the prison gates, I had the clothes on my back, my Bible, and my chess set. That was it.
Graceann Bennett (25:28)
Wo, that’s cool. So do you follow chess now? Do you know who’s playing chess now, at the high levels?
Gregory Roberts (25:39)
A little bit. I just play on chess.com all the time (find me at @acroyogi1969). It’s just like amusement… my videogame. Yeah, I still find the high level chess, the Grandmaster chess, fairly difficult to follow. I understand all the openings and things, but then… The mid-game is a very complicated structure and it’s like… its just fog of war. There’s so much stuff going on and so many plies and layers that unless you’re inside the head of the player, you know, its overwhelming.
So no, I don’t really watch chess as a spectator sport. Plus, I really really enjoy the visceral feeling of physical presence, the “thunk” of the pieces, the banter, the trash talk… the difference between a tentative “push” move and a confident “slam” piece capture… these nuances, this beautiful dance is totally lost on an electronic 2-D board. It’s something you want front row seats for.
Graceann Bennett (26:19)
So when you’re in prison and you’re playing chess, what can how people play chess — their chess style, as it were — say about their character? Because you’re just sizing people up, and you’re thinking, can I trust this person? or do I want to be their celly? …and you’re playing chess. So what can you learn about a man playing chess with a another man?
Gregory Roberts (26:40)
Well, the biggest challenge is… is people who cheat. When that happened, well… that would, that got me so angry. And that anger – when you catch someone cheating — almost got me into a couple more fights, right there. ‘Cause I’d be like, “Dude, you know, you just moved your knight, from here to here… that’s an illegal move.”
And he says, “No, what are you talking about? Actually, you weren’t paying attention. It came from here.” (pointing)
And I’d say, emphatically, somewhat shocked: “No. No, it didn’t. It came from there.” You know.. and you can’t prove it, because there’s no cameras or anything, no recording, no referee.
So my opponent gets all indignified, and puffs up his chest, and says, real loud: “You callin’ me a cheater?!?”… which is, basically, tantamount to a challenge to fight.
So I say, reflexively, without thinking: “Yeah!” and then I realised the trap I stepped into, and quickly: “No! No, I’m not calling you a cheater, but I am saying that you can’t make that move.” And then the person would like start grabbing three or four pieces, saying “this was here, this was here, you made this move, I made that move” and you know, mess up the whole board until it was just a total confusion as to which piece was where…
and So, basically, I’d like give people one chance on that. I’d say “Okay look, you know what? I’m not gonna finish playing this game, because that’s fucked up, but I’ll tell you what: we can start over the game, from square one. I’ll play it again, from the top. Lets go.”
And then if they did it again, I’d simply say: “Okay, I’m just, I’m not playing anymore. Like, I’m just done playing with you, dude. Have fun.” And yes, yes I would make that as a judgment of someone’s character. Because I’m — you know, I’m not gonna, I’m just not gonna play against someone who cheats. I’m not gonna waste my time. I invest a lot of time and energy into every game I play, even a lot of social capital, choosing who I play with, who I’m seen with, fucking around on the tier, in the yard. And to have 30 minutes of work come down to some fucked up cheating move? No. I’m done. I’d be done with that person. I no longer want any dealings with that person. Across all channels. Done.
Graceann Bennett (27:42)
Okay, that’s interesting. So there are different types of people in there. People you respected, and some people you didn’t.
Gregory Roberts (27:48)
Well, I mean, the biggest thing, the fascinating thing for me, and this is actually more in jail than in prison, because there’s more serious consequences in prison, but the trash talk flying across the chessboard is friggin’ fascinating. And especially the blacks, the black gangbangers, like, I mean, they’re fairly ferocious. Like, when they take a piece, it’s like a…
Like, I mean, it’s a violent gesture, like, slam! down the fist and snatch! of the your piece off the board, in one beautiful, fluid motion… leaving only their piece behind, perfectly centered on that captured square. (I was so impressed by this, the slam-snatch-capture move, that I practiced it alone in my cell until I’d perfected it). And they’re just talking shit the whole time. Like, it’s a… it’s an art… And you can win a game, you know, by nothing but sheer verbal domination, intimidation. I’m saying you can, like, terrorize your opponent so much. Because it just takes confidence and boldness, to move well while talking serious shit at the same time. So…
I learned that in jail a little bit, that kind of trash talk, and I started performing that same trash talk in prison, thinking I was a badass, and whoops! Let me tell you: prison ain’t jail. At Beaumont, people were like, “Dude, you’re gonna get your ass kicked or worse, talking shit like that. You need to tone that shit down, and be fucking respectful. You have no idea who you were just talking smack to. You’re just lucky that you lost the match, and not your head.”
And I responded like, “huh? What??” But that’s how they play it, at the USP. Not like jail, with a bunch of transient derelicts, in one day, out the next. Like you got people have been in the USP for 25 years, and they’re gonna be here another 25 years. Like this is their town. This is their life. You can’t talk smack to them, in their own house. Especially if you’re winning.
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