Pirate Soldier King / xr007 / Race, Gangs and Tribes [RAW]

This is the complete, edited & augmented transcript of e00X of the PSK Podcast, in which Graceann Bennett interviews author Gregory Roberts about topics and details of his True Crime / Prison memoir, Pirate Soldier King. This segment focuses on RACE, GANGS and TRIBES.

Contents hide

1 INTRO

2 BONUS MATERIAL

3 RAW TRANSCRIPT

4 OUTRO

INTRO

Graceann Bennett (00:01)
All right. Welcome to Pirate Soldier King!

I’m your host, Graceann Bennett, interviewing author & serial entrepreneur, Gregory Roberts.

Gregory Roberts (00:11)
Hello, Graceann.
It’s good to be here.

BONUS MATERIAL

“Its not racism,
its tribalism.”

— Piper Kerman,
Orange is the New Black

RAW TRANSCRIPT

Graceann Bennett (00:02.41)
All right, and we’re here again with Gregory Roberts for another episode of Pirate Soldier King. All right, okay, we’re gonna get into it. This episode, I mean, we could get a lot of feedback, I guess. We could be getting feedback, because we’re gonna dig right into.

Gregory Roberts (00:10.122)
Move!

Gregory Roberts (00:25.995)
The Naked Truth.

Graceann Bennett (00:27.426)
The Naked Truth about race in prison. what? Yep, we’re going to get into it. OK, hot topic. So one of your chapters, talked about, and the title of the chapter is, It’s Not Racist, It’s Tribal. And you talk about that, I guess, the woman who wrote Orange is the New Black. She’s quoted at the front of your chapter.

Gregory Roberts (00:32.585)
And in life.

Gregory Roberts (00:51.849)
Yes, yeah. She has a quote in her book.

Graceann Bennett (00:53.484)
So talk a little bit about that chapter and why it’s not racist, it’s tribal and what’s going on here and race in prison.

Gregory Roberts (01:04.811)
Basically, in any incarceration environment, everybody organizes by race. By race, by gang. Those are really closely related but not exactly the same topic. Generally, the gangs will be like MS-13, Mexican Mafia, Sereños, Norteños. Those are all Mexican or Hispanic.

Mexico is from Mexico, Central America are called Paisas, but generally they glom together and that’s the organizational structure of how things work in prison. Because as we said before, like prison is run not by the COs or by the BOP, it’s run by the inmates. And it’s really run by the gangs because they control the money, the cells, the drugs, the behavior. And I guess to back up a bit, so.

Graceann Bennett (02:02.606)
You

Gregory Roberts (02:02.877)
It’s still powerful in jail, but it’s like less because there’s so much transience. But once you get to prison, you’re talking about people who have been there a long time and will be there a long time. And so the structures are in place. And when you first get to prison, you work with a group called classification. Classification is part of the Bureau of Prisons that says like, this is where you’re going to be settled up.

Graceann Bennett (02:11.596)
Mm-hmm.

Gregory Roberts (02:30.173)
And they really, the CEOs really try and do it so that there’s peace amongst the gangs. Like they try and balance it out in every unit. A unit is 128 men. There’s usually six to 10 units per prison. And, 12 sometimes. And so when you go in to a prison, they take you into a room and ask you, they say, what is your gang affiliation? Now,

Graceann Bennett (02:55.797)
hehe

Gregory Roberts (02:57.855)
There’s also something called the Rico Act, which is for to prosecute organized crime and gangs. And generally, if you’re gang affiliated, like that’s a multiplier on your sentence. So I was looking at 20 years, but if I, if I was actually robbing banks with a gang, I’d be looking at like 25 to 30 years per, per incident. and that’s so, so when they first started asking me gang affiliation, I was like, no gang, no, like I’m just an independent, what lone wolf.

Graceann Bennett (03:15.688)
Hmm.

Graceann Bennett (03:22.403)
You

Gregory Roberts (03:27.819)
But then one of the guys was actually, I don’t know, he just had a good vibe about him. He wasn’t a police type of thing. And he was like, look, dude, we’re trying to keep you safe, and we’re trying to keep this prison running smoothly. So I’m not asking you if you’re part of a gang on the streets. I’m asking you, who do you want to be housed with, and what authority will you be answering to in the unit? And so luckily, I’d been like, I’ve

Graceann Bennett (03:45.004)
Thank

Graceann Bennett (03:52.725)
wow.

Gregory Roberts (03:57.067)
you know, every time I had an opportunity to talk to federal prisoners, I would like interview the hell out of them because they knew they were like the, you know, the PhDs of the prison system. And I’d be like, Hey man, like I’m about to go to Beaumont. Like what’s the deal? And so one of the keys was a guy said, well, where are from? I was like, well, it’s a long story. Born in Indiana, you know, raised in DC, lived a lot in California. He’s like, that’s all too complicated, man. Like, where are you from? So I was like, California.

I am California is like good then your West Coast independent wife. I was like, it again, what? He goes West Coast independent white. I’m like, all right, that’s what I’m gonna say. I didn’t even know what it meant. It was just like four magic words. So the CEO is like walking me to the unit and he’s like, what car do you ride with? And that’s like slang for like car is gang and ride is like, know, ride or die. So what car do you ride with? And I’m just like rehearsing my lines like West Coast independent white.

Graceann Bennett (04:31.566)
You

Graceann Bennett (04:40.846)
Uh-huh.

Gregory Roberts (04:55.871)
And he goes, all right, know right where I’m putting you, Robert. I got you, don’t worry. I’m like, OK. It’s actually like that was a true blessing because Beaumont is a Texas prison, which has a lot of Texas gangs. Texas is like California, where it’s like such a huge state that they have like multiple gangs per race there. Like there’s Texas blacks, DC blacks, gangster disciples, all this.

Graceann Bennett (05:00.662)
You

Gregory Roberts (05:24.785)
most of the people from the Midwest and they were like in the Oklahoma car or the Texas whites car or the Aryan circle. As a West Coast independent, like technically I didn’t fall under any of the authority of any of the like Midwest or Texas white gangs. So I still had like affiliation, we kind of, the West Coast independence, like the California boys, we kind of like did our own thing.

Graceann Bennett (05:44.8)
huh.

Gregory Roberts (05:53.301)
So it was kind of a perfect place. And yeah.

Graceann Bennett (05:53.741)
that’s cool.

Graceann Bennett (05:58.444)
And so you, and they, everybody knew you’re West Coast independent white.

Gregory Roberts (06:03.083)
Yeah, I mean, you kind of declare it when you get on the yard, because all the whites will be asking you, like, yo, man, where are you from? Like, what’s your gang? And like, if you’re in a serious street gang, you have like tattoos that represent that. It’s actually one the other part of intake is they strip you naked, and they like take eight photographs of every single tattoo on your body. I mean, I say that for me, because I only have like 12 or 13 tattoos. But mean, a lot of these guys are full coverage, you know.

head to toe, I’m saying like they document a hell of it because tattoos are generally, prison style tattoos and gang tattoos are a very specific genre. It’s not like dragons and Japanese motives. It’s like these things mean something.

Graceann Bennett (06:49.566)
and then what about your tattoos? They were kind of independent?

Gregory Roberts (06:53.483)
My tattoos are like my family crest, know, my daughter’s name, my son’s name, my mother’s name, you know, my company logo. So, my stuff is very personal. Yeah.

Graceann Bennett (07:07.694)
So that they can really tell anything about your gang affiliation with your tattoos.

Gregory Roberts (07:14.215)
Right, mean no, mean they thought because it’s yeah, but no my tattoos are my tattoos. Yeah

Graceann Bennett (07:20.28)
All right, so for the most part, everybody hangs out with their own race.

Gregory Roberts (07:27.251)
It’s more than hanging out, yeah. Yes, I mean, so all the cells are like on the edge of this, like the perimeter of this triangle. And then in the center is what’s called the day room. It’s probably like the size of two basketball courts. And so when you’re out of your cells, either half the unit or when it’s wide open, the whole unit, 128 men, the rule is pretty much in federal prison. Like you cannot hang out in your cell. Like you have to be on the tier.

And it’s all predicated on if gang war happens, we need all hands on deck. So you can’t be sleeping when something pops. Like you need to be aware. And like we’d only wear, like we had our MP3 players, but we’d only wear one headphone in. Because if you’re like in your music and you’re like, la la la la la, and things are just like exploding around you, you’re not a very useful soldier. So like the thing is always keep an ear on the tier. It like you are responsible.

Graceann Bennett (08:16.974)
Right.

Graceann Bennett (08:22.318)
Ahhhh

Gregory Roberts (08:24.907)
to know what’s going on 360 around you and like you may be watching TV but you better be going like this like every 30 seconds to like to be aware in case the shit goes down. So in the day room, which I said two basketball court size, one of the first days I was there, each person has a chair and you bring your chair out of your cell and you put it in the day room and there’s tables. The tables are like bolted to the floor. So I’m like.

dragging my chair around the day room, looking at the televisions. I’m like, I’m watch this television. I like plopped my chair down. And, one of the persons who I’d befriended, like through the, through the door was this Hispanic guy named Ghost. And he’s like, dude, what the fuck are you doing? I’m like, I wanna watch this TV. He’s like, that’s the Mexican TV. You weren’t invited here? Like you don’t belong here? Like, dude, before you get hurt, like move your fucking chair to the white area. And I was like, what?

Graceann Bennett (09:09.277)
you

Gregory Roberts (09:19.487)
Like, are you fucking kidding me, dude? He’s like, I’m not kidding, now. And I’m like, okay, okay. And I asked him in my white cell, I’m like, what the fuck is that all about? He’s like, you don’t know? Like, you’re new? I’m like, yeah, yeah, I am new. Like, what the fuck? Look, there’s the two Mexican televisions, because they have like a lot. Those are the three black televisions. That’s the native television. And that’s the white television there. And that’s the two white tables. And when you go out of our cell,

you take your chair and you put it the line on the perimeter of the white area. Like we guard the perimeter with our chairs. And so, and you you aim it at the white TV. And I was like, okay. Like, all right. And so like initially I was like, well, where are these like lines of demarcation? You know, cause I was like, they’re not painted on the floor. And he’s like, you’ll figure it out. And sure enough, like within, I want to say a month, maybe even two weeks.

Graceann Bennett (09:55.703)
You

Graceann Bennett (10:01.582)
So.

Graceann Bennett (10:08.376)
Uh-huh.

Gregory Roberts (10:15.467)
It may as well been like fluorescent painted lane markers. There’s nothing on the floor, but just you could feel it. Like that’s the blacks. Nobody goes in the black area except the blacks. That’s the Mexicans. That’s the natives. That’s the whites. And it even goes so far as like, cause you know, race is a very sensitive topic. Some people say there’s no such thing as race. Sometimes on a, you know, you go on a form on a website and it says race optional, but here’s your 38 choices.

Graceann Bennett (10:19.019)
You

Graceann Bennett (10:30.155)
well.

Graceann Bennett (10:37.198)
Mm-hmm.

Gregory Roberts (10:45.963)
If you go on the Bureau of Prison website today and you go an inmate finder, it says gender, there’s only two options on gender, male and female. It says approximate age and race. And race says black, white, Mexican, Indian. Like, it’s like, they don’t know a fuck about political correctness. I might say Native American, but I mean, it’s just like, it’s so raw.

Graceann Bennett (11:05.07)
When you

They don’t even say Native American. This is Indian.

Graceann Bennett (11:15.436)
Yeah, and what about the Asians? You didn’t talk about that. Are they not in prison?

Gregory Roberts (11:15.775)
And.

I mean, no, they’re there, it’s just a minority. Like, shockingly, there’s a tremendous amount of Native Americans, and there’s actually, like in Texas prisons, there’s a lot of blacks. The reason being, I found out, is because Washington, D.C. is like, I think, 55 % black population. Washington, D.C. is not a state in America, so there’s no state prisons there. So any crime in Washington, D.C. is a federal crime. So.

Graceann Bennett (11:43.381)
I didn’t know that.

Gregory Roberts (11:45.075)
Yeah, so you get tons of blacks from DC, especially on the East Coast and Midwest prison system, because they just go straight to federal prison. And the natives are the same. Since they’re on reservation land, which is, I don’t know, in technicalities, but somehow that’s mandated by the federal government, not the states. So any Native American crime is classified as a federal crime as well. So those are.

Graceann Bennett (12:10.786)
Wow, okay.

Gregory Roberts (12:14.045)
represented more, like I’d say like five or six percent were Native Americans and that was fascinating.

Graceann Bennett (12:21.134)
What do you, so, so what, does this change how you look at race outside of prison? So like, what do we not get people that have never been to prison about race or what, what, what are you missing? And what do know that we don’t know about it? The world works.

Gregory Roberts (12:41.183)
Yeah, I’ll start with a story and then we can go into like the abstract. The story is playing chess. So like you play chess and generate like the accepted way to do it is you take a white piece in one hand, a black piece in the other hand, and you switch them behind your back and you offer the other player like which one you want. And they pick one, you go, okay, there. that’s, so you’re either white or black. Technically there’s like a, 2 % advantage to playing white because white plays first.

Graceann Bennett (12:45.912)
No. OK.

Gregory Roberts (13:09.471)
which may be racist in its own way, right? What white always moves first in chess. Well, if you’re a confident player, you just go to your opponent, you go, hey man, pick whatever you want. Well, you won’t Now, because I was just learning, I’d always pick white. And blacks are some of the better players in prison. Actually, most, many of the better players. And so I pick white and the black guy across me goes, you racist motherfucker.

Graceann Bennett (13:25.358)
Mm-hmm.

Gregory Roberts (13:40.107)
And as someone who like had not dealt a lot with that culture in my life, I was like, no, no, no, I’m not racist. No! You know, and maybe laughing because they like put me on a spot and I was awkward like that. And this worked like maybe the first three times. It’s like, I don’t want no beef, man. Like, no, I’ll play black if you want.

And then I was like, they’re just putting it out there, right? It’s like by naming it, you kill it, like in a good way. And then so the first time I knew I kind of graduated that was like, I actually offered the guy which piece they wanted and the black guy goes, I want white. And he went, you’re so racist. I said this. And he’s like, that’s way I fuck up. You know, like fist bumps. And it was like, that I felt like, okay, now I can have this honest conversation.

Graceann Bennett (14:12.654)
Okay.

Gregory Roberts (14:34.217)
Like we’ve crossed that chasm and we’ve acknowledged, yes, I’m white. Yes, you’re black. Yes, you know, our races have tensions in prison and in the real world. But now we can talk about it honestly, because it’s like on the table. I think that’s the, yeah. And the other thing that I kind of learned was just like being in that environment for so long, there’s some osmosis. And I don’t really know how to express it except to say that like,

Graceann Bennett (14:47.476)
you put on the table.

Graceann Bennett (14:57.646)
Mm-hmm.

Gregory Roberts (15:01.963)
I can code switch, I think is the right thing. So like, if I’m with a bunch of like blacks in the inner city, like I feel like confident in communicating with them in their own kind of like slang and vernacular. And I’m not like the white guy saying, hey guys, what’s up? You you want to play some basketball? Like that, like I can code switch.

Graceann Bennett (15:18.52)
Mm-hmm.

Graceann Bennett (15:23.086)
You little dork. Yeah. So what would you do? How would you ask to play basketball?

Gregory Roberts (15:32.319)
Like, yo, let’s play some hoops, man. I don’t know. Basketball, basketball like chess is like one of the beautiful parts of prison where like it bridges all the races. Like, so in the tier in the day room, everything’s property and everything’s like borders and things. When you go out to yard, even at yard, there’s tables that are by race, like tables in the park. But on a basketball court,

Graceann Bennett (15:34.592)
Okay. And a moment you say the next one.

Gregory Roberts (16:02.877)
anybody can play. So like, you just go in and you’re playing with the blacks, mexicans, and asians, and it’s total meritocracy. It’s like, it’s just, you know, good players play with each other, bad players play on the second court, but it’s like, it transcends race. I mean, the blacks are some of the better players for sure. Like, man, I saw some NBA class hoops in there. Like seriously, it’s beautiful to watch. Yeah.

Graceann Bennett (16:04.718)
Hmm.

Graceann Bennett (16:29.774)
That’s great.

Gregory Roberts (16:31.083)
As the white guy like playing with like, let’s say like a 70 80 % black basketball game. The best part was.

Graceann Bennett (16:37.902)
Mm-hmm.

Gregory Roberts (16:41.673)
I was supposed to be the worst player there. And so no black on the court would stoop low enough to guard me. So when it got like into the paint, they passed it to me and I’d have like a layup with no block. Cause they’d be like, ain’t gonna guard the white guy. And I almost became a joke. Like it passes to the white guy, no one’s guarding him.

Graceann Bennett (16:45.131)
Uh-huh.

Graceann Bennett (16:54.85)
Yeah.

Graceann Bennett (17:02.65)
So you make some actual points? Yeah? You know how to… Okay, so you’re okay with that.

Gregory Roberts (17:04.818)
hells yeah! Absolutely yes! Yeah I love basketball. I was born in Indiana.

Graceann Bennett (17:11.406)
Okay. No, there we go. See, we got some hoops going on there. All right. And then what were some other times where the races would actually mix? So you talked about, did they go to church together or is that separate too?

Gregory Roberts (17:16.074)
Yeah, Larry Bird.

Gregory Roberts (17:29.279)
No, actually that’s a really good one, yes. So the Vikings, that church is all white.

Graceann Bennett (17:39.982)
There’s a Viking church?!?

Gregory Roberts (17:29.279)
There’s an Odinist, well it’s called Odinism, but yeah, there’s — the hardcore Whites are Odinists. So they worship Thor and Odin and Freya… and they write in runes and things. I mean, it’s for real. They have an outdoor fire ring that’s sanctioned by the Bureau of Prisons where every month they have a fire circle and pray to Odin. And the Odinists also generally respect the Christians. And as you were inferring there, Christianity bridges all races. So if we did prayer circle, we could actually — and this is rare — we could bring all the races into our cell to do a prayer circle.

…and no one would have beef with it. Like, no matter whose cell it was — blacks, whites, mexicans, natives — you know, and that’s rare. But if we said, look, like we’re Christian, we’re praying, everybody would be like, “Yeah, all right, it’s all good.” Yeah, so that was, actually that was one of the more profound bridges. Like the play is good, like basketball and chess, but in prayer circle, you hear people’s deepest, darkest fears. You know, you see grown men tremble.

All races gangs and tribes come together in Prayer Circle / Religion in Prisons

Graceann Bennett (18:47.182)
Mmm.

Gregory Roberts (18:49.853)
either because something bad is happening in prison to them or more commonly, something bad is happening to their people on the outside and their mother is dying or their sister just got accused of cocaine dealership or whatever. you really see the humanity of people in church. And there was a formal church like chapel, but where the real church is, is like prayer circles in the day room.

Graceann Bennett (18:49.859)
Wow.

Gregory Roberts (19:18.313)
Like that’s where you get down. That’s where you like hold hands in a circle and bow your heads and really get with it.

Graceann Bennett (19:25.058)
Wow, that’s incredible. So, and people were vulnerable and they would talk about things they were struggling with.

Gregory Roberts (19:32.715)
Yeah, I’m getting chills down my spine when you said that. Yeah, like it was really the rare instance where it felt like shields would go down because ain’t nobody prays like a prison prayer. I mean, people are just raw and they’re really praying to God and the beauty of it is like God really answers. There’s a passage in the Bible that says like, how do you pray?

Graceann Bennett (19:56.494)
Wow.

Gregory Roberts (20:01.183)
Bring, anytime you bring three or more people together, that’s a church. You don’t need a building. You don’t need anything. You bring three people together. You pray to Jesus Christ or Yeshua, Masius, know, whatever you want to call him and boom, that’s a church. And so that’s intense. And yeah, people were actually vulnerable and it was beautiful. And we’d like hug each other and sometimes there’d be tears or, you know, yeah.

Graceann Bennett (20:19.214)
world.

Graceann Bennett (20:25.73)
Wow. Yeah, I got chills too. It chills down the back of my head. Chills. Well, all right. Okay. So, one of the other things that you, talked about, and I’m not sure if it’s in your book or to some of our conversations, but we talked about renting out, cells and so we’re like, we’re getting into real estate and race, right? So real estate and race. How does that, how does that work?

Gregory Roberts (20:29.707)
Good question.

Gregory Roberts (20:55.349)
Well, again, I’ll illustrate it at the start of the story. So we get a memo one day after a severe lockdown. And it says, it’s signed by the warden, and it says, attention all inmates, Bureau of Prison is the absolute owner of all cells in this prison. No race or gang owns any cell, nor may rent it out to other people.

Now already knew this went on, but I’m like laughing just because of the impotence of the warden having to issue this thing, which is obvious, right? Like no one really thinks that they own a cell. However, the cells are absolutely practically owned by the gangs. And so, you know, it’s to keep the balance of power in place. And also like you want to basically be next to people of your race so that you can easily transfer messages and drugs between cells.

We’d fish lines through the toilets or through the air vents or just like out, like under the slot of the door to the other cell and back. So it’d be, that’d be hard to do if you’re like 80 feet away. But if you’re just like 12 feet to the left, just, know, that line. You have rapid transfer of stuff even during lockdowns. So, but from time to time, you know, like some cells were definitely better than other cells. Like you don’t want to be near the CO’s office.

Graceann Bennett (22:08.258)
All right.

Gregory Roberts (22:16.891)
and like the first cell I landed in, was one of the only cells in the whole prison that I was on the fourth floor with a decent window and I could see the entire yard and I could see most of the units because just the way the prison was arranged. So like it was like the bird’s eye view and we had eyes on the yard. So anything that popped, like basically like if someone’s at yard, you’re watching because you want to see if something pops. mean,

both for just knowledge of like what the racial tension is, but also it’s just entertainment. I mean, I hate to it, it’s like Gladiator. Like you see a five-on-one going down on the yard. It’s like the best MMA ever. I mean, it’s just people swinging for their lives. They’ll be bang on the window and you’ll be like, action, action.

Graceann Bennett (23:01.806)
Hold on.

All right, well that reminds me, I didn’t talk about this, but I definitely wanted to talk to you about who watches what on television. So you talked a little bit about the whites watch certain things and the blacks and the Mexicans, and so who watches what on TV?

Gregory Roberts (23:26.889)
Yeah, well, the whites, will say, stereotypically and truly in prison are the most violent car. Like, because they’re into the Viking thing. And if there’s one core belief of Odinism, it’s that the only way to Valhalla is to die in mortal combat. And I’m telling you, these are true believers. So they’re like, they’ve got their knives sharpened.

And they’re just waiting for that minute where they can just like stab the hell out of someone and get stabbed to death and die. And then they’re going to heaven. yeah, yeah. mean, it’s yeah. As much as like I believe in Jesus Christ, they believe in that truth for sure. And so I went sideways on that a second. So what was the question? So more than once I had a celly.

Graceann Bennett (23:59.63)
and they believe.

Graceann Bennett (24:07.404)
Okay, okay.

Graceann Bennett (24:13.314)
or what they’re watching. they’re violent. So they’re watching, so because they’re violent, what do they like to watch?

Gregory Roberts (24:22.027)
You know, so like the blacks like to watch mostly like college and professional football and basketball, like NBA, NFL and college games. And that was their, they loved it. And they bet on it. You know, they bet on every freaking thing you can imagine on the games. Like first touchdown, point spread. You know, they had, the bookies were there. It was like, that was a sport. The whites I was with were like, man, I ain’t messing around with any ridiculous pussy ass football or baseball.

He goes, I’m only going to watch MMA. He goes, what do you think they’re doing in basketball and football? They’re just fighting and they’re not allowed to fight. They’re throwing elbows. In football, they’re tackling each other like faggots. But you want to see real action. It’s MMA. That’s all there is. And so I was like, it kind of had a real logic to it. I was like, yeah, man. Yeah, we just fight.

Graceann Bennett (24:51.63)
you

Graceann Bennett (25:15.278)
Yeah.

Gregory Roberts (25:17.375)
So to just take the gloves off and go, no pads, MMA, I mean, they do have knuckle pads, but other than that, there’s blood, they’re just going for it. And so that was like, that kind of opened my eyes, yeah.

Graceann Bennett (25:26.446)
Okay.

Graceann Bennett (25:31.244)
And then what are the Mexicans watching?

Gregory Roberts (25:33.883)
and like telenova is that you’re called a telemondo like telenovela jet at like it you know even though the stuff is on the tv now they also had some really good movies that they watched sometimes if i was lucky i get invited to the hispanic area to watch a movie

Graceann Bennett (25:38.254)
telenovelas. Is it telenovelas? Yeah.

Graceann Bennett (25:47.374)
don’t know.

Graceann Bennett (25:53.222)
was it in Spanish or in English? Okay, so and then you talked about, yeah, people like Breaking Bad. Who likes Breaking Bad?

Gregory Roberts (25:56.201)
No, they were in English. Yeah.

Gregory Roberts (26:04.203)
every meth addict in prison, but mostly white meth addicts. So, I mean, in federal prison, you might be a meth addict, but I mean, if you’re in for that charge, the addicts stay in jail. The people in prison are mostly cooks. So, mean, they can really relate to Walter White. Like, they’ve had the trailer blow up on them. I mean, literally. They’ve cooked from…

just a kitchen they made themselves and then stolen some industrial scientific equipment. They see that show and it’s so well researched, they see themselves in the show. And since I think they took this anti-hero and made him a lovable protagonist, they’re like, yeah, that’s me. I watched, I don’t know, five or six episodes of the show because everyone was fascinated with it. I was like, no, man, he’s still a freaking criminal. He’s not helping the world.

Graceann Bennett (26:50.827)
Okay.

Gregory Roberts (27:02.709)
So…

Graceann Bennett (27:03.886)
What about the movies and Mexicans watch that is like the real gang violence? Which one’s that? Well, now I’m curious. I’m worried about getting the entertainment, know, the segregated television.

Gregory Roberts (27:08.573)
Okay. Yeah, we’ll go there. So this is actually one of my favorite moments. Yeah. So I was actually at an ice holding facility in Yuma, Arizona, because it was overflow because COVID jammed up all the prison transport. And two of the guys I was in with, one was basically the biggest cocaine smuggler into Southern California. So San Diego and LA, I think he was doing

north of $200 million a year, know, mostly by sub-medium, huh?

Graceann Bennett (27:42.22)
sales in $200 million selling cocaine. Wow. Okay.

Gregory Roberts (27:46.677)
Coke. Yeah. Maybe more than that. I mean, yeah, you get to read everyone’s discovery and it’s like, damn, I mean, that guy is a baller. he was so cool and he was so high end. Like, you know, the magazines he got was like Architectural Digest and like, you know, $100 million yachts. like, was a serious thing. And I was like, are you worried? He’s like, no, man, I’m definitely getting 10 years. And…

Graceann Bennett (27:57.07)
you

Gregory Roberts (28:14.633)
My wife, we live in this huge mansion and the kids go to the best private schools and he goes, she knew the whole time, this is the deal. If we get caught, I’m doing 10 years, she’s taking care of everything and she’s taking care of. And I was like, wow, okay. He was just a cold criminal with that. And I also loved him. He was more, a lot of the people are street criminals, from the hard streets. This guy was like, mean,

He was a CEO. He was a real, he managed an enterprise and had probably 800 people working for him at various levels and he was a businessman. I researched when I got out, think Coke just in Southern California is north of a billion dollar business. I think 1.5 billion a year.

Graceann Bennett (28:56.654)
Okay.

Graceann Bennett (29:04.856)
Like, just in Southern California.

Gregory Roberts (29:07.817)
Just in Southern California, yeah, absolutely. yeah, so his friend, yeah, so his friend was actually one of the largest cocaine plantation owners in Columbia. And he didn’t speak much English, so the Coke Kingpin translated for me, and we all three played chess, so that was like our bond. And we got to be friends. And…

Graceann Bennett (29:10.53)
Wow, that’s big business. So what was the movie that was the most accurate about this? Yep, okay.

Graceann Bennett (29:23.418)
wow, okay.

Graceann Bennett (29:35.736)
He

Gregory Roberts (29:37.259)
and we kind of plotted stuff together. The Colombian guy wasn’t worried at all. He was like, yeah, I’m going to be here a year and then Colombia is going to extradite me and they’ll put me right back on my plantation so I can manage it and do what I do. He was like fourth generation coca farmer. And so to your question about the movie, this movie comes on called Sicario.

Graceann Bennett (29:52.814)
Wow. Okay. And so the Colombians want your business. Yes. Yes. The movie. Yes.

Gregory Roberts (30:05.097)
And these guys are like, you have to watch this with us. I’m like, all right, sure. I had no idea what was about. Well, it’s about like the Mexican cartels and the DEA. And I’m like, why am I supposed to watch this movie? And the guy goes to me, goes, because look, this is my life. And he goes, there’s all kind of crazy, like Beverly Hills cop, know, like silly stuff about like how this goes down. He goes, but this movie is really how it is.

because you’re gonna see some ugly, mean, like murderous shit on both the side of the government and the cartels, and that’s how that game is played, and that’s how it is. Like this movie might as well be a documentary. So I’m like watching this movie, and they’re like Mystery Science Theater 3000, like giving me commentary while it’s going, and I was just like, holy shit. Like I recommend this movie. It’s an excellent movie no matter what your background, but with that kind of legitimacy put on it, I was just like, I was in heaven.

Graceann Bennett (30:52.046)
You

Gregory Roberts (31:04.331)
I was like, this is so legit.

Graceann Bennett (31:07.68)
Okay. We’re going to, we’ll, we’ll put that in the show notes for the people that are here. We do that. Okay. wow. Okay. So lots of different stuff is going on. So, so we talked about MMA. So is there like some MMA dude that you met that’s in prison? like who, who’s the

Gregory Roberts (31:28.491)
Well, I’ll tell you a funny story. Yeah, so there was one guy, he was accused of rape, which is like a no-no. So there’s paper and, but he was an MMA fighter, like a real like competitive MMA fighter. I think he was even like famous, like he’d been on a UFC or something. So, but as a rapist, he needs to get smashed out.

Like when you get into prison, there’s something called putting in the work. Like every new person in prison has to put in the work, which means you’re part of the team to get out the bad people. And so it’s generally a two-on-one. Sometimes it’s a three-on-one. In really rare circumstances, it’s a five-on-one. So that means that the two people to put in the work have to go in the cell and beat the shit out of that person.

And when the CO’s see this happen, they take that person away from protective custody, then they move him to another prison where they’re safe. So the seven-man guy’s in the cell, and there’s a little concern, so they make it three-on-one. They send three pretty big guys in there to kick his ass. And you know, just, poof, poof, poof, like you hear it in the door. just shit’s going nuts in there. And it goes on for a minute, like a real minute. And that’s a long-ass time for a fight.

Graceann Bennett (32:40.878)
Ugh.

Gregory Roberts (32:46.665)
And then at the end of it, the three guys come out, I think two came out, they were messed up. I mean, they were like, like eye bleeding, nose smashed, like, like almost crawling. And a third guy like crawls out of the cell. The other guy’s still in there. He’s like, bring some more motherfuckers. Okay. So just like, because it’s prison politics, we had to do a five on one.

Graceann Bennett (32:53.165)
No.

Graceann Bennett (33:02.65)
Graceann Bennett (33:07.309)
No.

Graceann Bennett (33:15.405)
No.

Gregory Roberts (33:16.073)
sent five guys in and everyone’s like, man, like, and honestly, a five home one is almost impossible because it’s hard to even surround somebody with five people and all be hitting them. Like it’s challenging, technically, especially in an eight foot by 12 foot cell. So basically like three went in, the other two behind and the two just came running out. And the conclusion was, okay, we’re not fucking with this guy. Like we did our best.

And there’s limits. so, I mean, he just was like, know, Mike makes right in prison. There’s something to that. And he was just like, you know, anybody you want to send in, I’ll smash you motherfuckers into the ground and I might kill one of you. So whatever you want to do, you know, but I’m here. And it was just kind of like an armistice, I’d say.

Graceann Bennett (33:46.094)
What happened to him?

Graceann Bennett (34:04.92)
So he didn’t get, so did he rape, I mean, it didn’t matter if he raped someone or not, you couldn’t get him out of the prison. So he stayed with you guys.

Gregory Roberts (34:10.731)
No. I mean for a minute, I think he got transferred eventually to like, everyone’s always trying to transfer to either a prison close to their home or a lower security prison. Like Beaumont is not where you want to be. But yeah, think he transferred like within I think three months, but there was no more DPs on that dude.

Graceann Bennett (34:32.493)
Okay, note to self, if I get stuck in prison, take some MA, you know, just learn how to fight before I get there. I bet I would want to. Right.

Gregory Roberts (34:41.395)
Yeah, yeah. mean, that’s not to self-even. don’t need even do this. I encourage everyone to take some kind of martial arts training just because it builds confidence in all walks of life. If you feel confident in your ability to fight, then you can fight for what you believe in in a peaceful way. This concept of the peaceful warrior. It’s about conviction in your heart and confidence.

So yeah, I think it’s good for anybody, whether you’re ever gonna get in real fight or not. It builds confidence.

Graceann Bennett (35:15.128)
Okay. And so do you still tune up your fighting skills then? Now? On the outside? No?

Gregory Roberts (35:18.891)
No. mean, yeah, okay, I practice like some combos sometimes, like, you know, with my hands, like, uppercut, left hook, body shot, body shot, uppercut, hook, you know, just fast combos. You get those in muscle memory, but yeah.

Graceann Bennett (35:38.622)
than that so

Gregory Roberts (35:40.233)
I mean, I feel like I have my credit in that and I have my confidence in that. If it ever comes to it, I know what I’m doing.

Graceann Bennett (35:48.718)
Okay. Okay. Well, all right. So, uh, so then the last question we’ll get to the Mexicans and, this, this whole, I know you liked it. You, you’re into physical activity and you worked out a lot in prison, right? So that was important for you. And where the races split up, like the blacks, the whites, the Mexicans all split up exercising too.

Gregory Roberts (36:03.423)
Yeah.

Gregory Roberts (36:12.331)
Of course, yes, yes. And the wild thing is, like, really? The Mexicans work out the hardest. mean, well, maybe not the hardest. Maybe the whites work out the hardest, but not all the whites work out. Like, it’s supposed to be mandatory, but really, I would say like, whites are just a very independent, like everyone’s like, hey, don’t tell me what to do. do my, work out, I have my own workout routine. You do your workout routine.

Whereas the Mexicans, they’re like an army. Like every yard, there’d be like 15 to 25 Mexicans in a line, or sometimes two lines, boom, and total perfect synchronization. And so, yeah, like, and it’s mostly burpees, but there’s all kind of like, there’s a thousand kinds of burpees. so they do like 21 where you start with like 21 burpees, then 20, then 19, then 18, you know, you go down the ladder.

Graceann Bennett (36:53.837)
Really?

Gregory Roberts (37:09.419)
All kinds of crazy stuff like that, but I mean, huge cardio. And so just for fun, I mean, my friend, my chest sparring friend was Boy George, and he also, mean, at 55 years old, he led the Mexican workouts. I mean, he was a frigging beast. And you’re talking about, you know, going against real athletes, but he would make those men just like collapse in puddles of sweat. I mean, we’re talking about Texas heat and humidity too. So.

Graceann Bennett (37:13.486)
Mm-hmm.

Gregory Roberts (37:38.923)
So George is like, hey man, you work out with us sometime. I’m like, yeah, sure, all right, excellent. Like, I’ve been, yeah, that’d be fun. And so we were like, I don’t know, like eight sets in. He’s like, all right, Phoenix, lead this set. I’m like, all right, yeah, let’s go. Hey, yeah. All right, Navy Seal burpees, go, hit it. 15, go. You know, just, and burpees are so, so bad for the body, but they’re, you know, it’s like a thing. So.

Graceann Bennett (37:43.832)
Mm-hmm.

Graceann Bennett (37:52.77)
Hehehehehe

Graceann Bennett (37:59.959)
Yeah.

Graceann Bennett (38:07.022)
that they.

Gregory Roberts (38:08.747)
I get back to the day room, everything, and I’m moving around, this guy pulls me over, he goes, man, what the fuck are you doing, like, working out with the Mexicans? I’m like, what, George invited me, you know, it’s all cool. He’s like, it’s not cool. I’m like, what? He goes, man, work out with the whites, and especially if you’re gonna lead, like, you better lead some whites. Like, get these fat ass whites, you know, doing some burpees, doing some pushups, doing some shit, and get them in shape.

Graceann Bennett (38:16.462)
Yeah.

Graceann Bennett (38:25.036)
I know.

Gregory Roberts (38:38.315)
I was like, okay. I think that was one of the, I argued a little bit, but it was one of the last times I worked out with the Mexicans, even though I remained friends with George. Cause it was just like, that was some heat and some tension that I just didn’t, didn’t want or need, you know, in that.

Graceann Bennett (38:40.782)
I

Graceann Bennett (38:48.846)
Alright.

Graceann Bennett (38:56.234)
Right. So you think you want to be race blind, but it doesn’t even…

Gregory Roberts (39:01.843)
I don’t think there’s any such thing as race blind. I mean, I think the best you can be is to, and that’s what I was getting at with like the chess game and that element, like the best you can be is to recognize that there are cultural differences and to respect those differences and to learn how to bridge them. The idea of there’s no racism, we’re all just like shades of gray, I don’t think it’s helpful.

Graceann Bennett (39:04.312)
Okay.

Gregory Roberts (39:30.207)
You know, what’s helpful is to see where someone’s coming from to see their culture and be able to build a bridge to that by code switching or just by asking questions or having authentic conversations with them or sports, you know, playing sports.

Graceann Bennett (39:47.586)
Okay, and also it sounds like respecting their boundaries too.

Gregory Roberts (39:51.477)
That’s an interesting one. I had not thought of that, I think you’re correct, yes.

Graceann Bennett (39:56.622)
And that that’s okay to… Because in a way, if you’re trying to be part of those races, then that’s disrespectful. Right? Right?

Gregory Roberts (40:06.027)
Yeah, that’s a good point. I mean, were in prison. We were never trying to be part of those races. But like I said, you could be invited into their space, or you could invite one of them into your space, like, as a professional courtesy, you know, to play a game or something. Yeah.

Graceann Bennett (40:23.181)
Yeah, that’s interesting. And then how church is the one most vulnerable safe space as a unifier. So it’s just interesting though what unifies in the games and yeah, but then there’s…

Gregory Roberts (40:33.481)
Yeah, to the point of boundaries, like a couple times I had to, you know, as speaker, had to enforce the boundaries of the white space because they would test people would, I mean, I did it as an idiot when I like put my chair in the Hispanic area, but like some of the blacks would intentionally like just cut right through the middle of the white property and like stand in the middle and like start yelling at somebody to sell across here, like, yo, nigga, what up? Like, come on, yeah, come over here. Like right in front of all this, I’d be like, hey man, look.

Like, you know, this is the white area. Like, you can walk around the edge. I don’t walk into your all’s area. Like, be respectful, please. And then the same guy the next day would do the same shit. And I’d be like, hey, dude, like, I’m serious. Like, we don’t want a problem here and you don’t want a problem. Like, please, like, walk on the edge there. Respect our space. We respect your space. Everything stays good. And then they wouldn’t do it again. But it got to that level of tension. You know, that’s a very, at least for me, that was a very uncomfortable conversation.

know, there’s racist overtones to it and everything. But I’m like, no, we’re the same. Like, we don’t go in your space, you don’t go in our space, and everybody understands that.

Graceann Bennett (41:32.888)
Mm-hmm.

Graceann Bennett (41:40.544)
Interesting. Okay. So, so just one last parting kind of thinking because there’s so much like, there’s so much like political correctness and there’s so much we’re so like, I don’t know. mean, I don’t know how people don’t even including myself, like how do you actually approach race in the real world? Because it just is so fraught with so many different tensions or you’re going to

to say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing. And so it just seems bewildering, I guess.

Gregory Roberts (42:13.259)
I think the biggest criticism I ever got about racism was never from blacks or Mexicans, it was always from politically correct whites. And there’s mostly be like hard left people, be like, oh, you can’t say that. And I used to like, used to say, oh, okay, thanks for the education. Now I’m like, no, I say whatever the fuck I want. Like I’ve been around the block. Like I have bridges. I know how to communicate with people. And if that offends you, my fellow white person.

Well then you figure your own stuff out. Like I’m not making apologies anymore. that, and again, most of the ones that I’ve gotten the most shit from are very sheltered people who have not had the experiences I’ve had. So, you know, I wouldn’t, your point or your question, I’d say, you know, don’t worry about anything. Like just do your best, be authentic self, communicate honestly, ask questions honestly without fear, you know, build the bridges.

That’s the reality of it. And don’t worry about anybody criticizing you because you’re doing the work. We’re all doing the

Graceann Bennett (43:18.446)
That’s great. Well, definitely a very illuminating, interesting topic that don’t people, mean, regular people don’t have a view into. So thank you for sharing all that. And hopefully our listening audience enjoys this. Hopefully someone’s watching it. I mean, ideally it’d be great for, to get some comments from people in prison about this episode and the rest of the episodes.

Gregory Roberts (43:44.201)
Yeah, put your comments in the thing below. I always wanted to do that.

Graceann Bennett (43:46.35)
put your comments in the feed and then maybe we’ll get on the white, the blacks and the Mexicans TV time. this, you that would be a goal. We can see what they think. Okay. Anyway, thank you so much.

Gregory Roberts (43:56.373)
Right on, right on.

And more details and stories on this topic are in Pirate Soldier King.

Graceann Bennett (44:04.332)
All right, okay. Thank you so much, Gregory. Okay, bye bye.

Gregory Roberts (44:07.861)
Thank you, Grayson.